Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain faced off in their first presidential debate.
The exchange focused on the economy and foreign policy.
So did you hear what you wanted to hear from the candidates?
42 Comments
Peggy said:
Pretty much, I expected Obama to constantly say uummm and uumm and stumble over his words. He didn't disappoint. He also kept interupting when it wasn't his turn to speak. He is very arrogant and he IS an elitist!!
McCain had the best answers but I'm not surprised.
McCain/Palin 08
Karl said:
Obama won hands down. He gave direct and succient answers whereas McCain just kept on mumbling the same junk the Bush keeps saying. You could tell that McCain was not telling the truth on most of his answers. The way McCain kept darting his tounge out constantly and not once did McCain look at Barack when speaking. Any pschologist will tell those are signs of someone hiding the truth. I've seen a few older folks that dart thier tounge out like a snake and everyone of them were in the begining stages of Alshemer(sp) disease. Poor McCain, he looks so confused most of the time. I'm a hardcore Reagan republican, but I cannot in good consious vote for McCain. Oh, I can't wait for Biden to put Palin in her place next week.
OBAMA 08, YES!!
Karl said:
Oh, one last item. If I hear anymore about 9/11 or about McCain being a POW, I'm gonna puke. Quit living in past McCain. Your party has ruled America for 8 years, 12 years of the Congress. Can anyone turely say they are better off now then 8 years ago. McCain is clueless about economic problems within the states, and the way McCain keeps harping about economic sanctions against Iran that don't work shows that McCain is also clueless on how to be a diplomat. By the way; anyone can try to label me as a liberal but they would be wrong. I'm voteing for Dino Rossi for Governer. I never vote the party line.
OBAMA 08
Rossi )*
erv said:
so when is mccain going to resume his campaign? so was this debate a break in his suspension or is he officially back at it? what a bone headed move.
C said:
McCain at least showed up .. it would be interesting if Caribou Barbie is going to show up for the VP debate with Biden.
M J said:
I heard and saw that McCain has "passed his prime" and I heard and saw that Obama is thoughtful and measured in his responses. He doesn't fly off the handle. He's reflective and intelligent, just like a President should be. My vote will go to Obama.
pete said:
What I heard from one side...was an adult...for the other, a kid. Obama is far from being ready and he showed it. This proud hispanic voter is voting for the war hero, not the ACORN community organizer who's past relationships are questionable and troubling to most.
If you grow up in Hawaii you're 'exotic.'
Grow up in Alaska eating mooseburgers, you're the quintessential
'American story.'
Similarly, if you name your kid Barack you're 'unpatriotic.'
Name your kids Trig and Track, you're 'colorful.'
If you're a Democrat and you make a VP pick without fully vetting the
individual you're 'reckless.'
A Republican who doesn't fully vet is a 'maverick.'
If you spend 3 years as a community organizer growing your organization from a
staff of 1 to 13 and your budget from $70,000 to $400,000, then become the first
black President of the Harvard Law Review,create a voter regstration drive that
registers 150,000 new African Amerian voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional
Law professor,then spend nearly 8 more years as a State Senator representing a
district with over 750,000 people, becoming chairman of the state Senate's
Health and Human Services committee, then spend nearly 4 years in the United
States Senate representing a state of nearly 13 million people, sponsoring 131
bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and
Veteran's Affairs committees, you are woefully inexperienced.
If you spend 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town
with less than 7,000 people, then spend 20 months as the governor of a state
with 650,000 people, you've got the most executive experience of anyone on
either ticket, are the Commander in Chief of the Alaska military and are well
qualified to lead the nation should you be called upon to do so because your
state is the closest state to Russia.
If you are a Demoratic male candidate who is popular with millions of people
you are an 'arrogant celebrity'.
If you are a popular Republican female candidate you are 'energizing the
base'.
C said:
M J .. I salute you .. that was very well written and it made my day :)
erv said:
listening to mccain today was nauseating to say the least. he is talking about the action he took by suspending his campaign and obama did nothing, well i think we all know mccain really got in the way and used this as a photo op.
he is talking about obamas million a day ear marks so i looked at mccains involvment in the S&L scandal and his involvment costing the tax payers a billion in losses over a years time, i ran it thru my calculator and it cam up to $2,739,726.02 a day in losses. this isnt money being spent it is money lost. check out the link. http://graphics.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Pluck_leaks_helped_senator_to_overcome_S_L_scandal+.shtml
Quinn said:
McCain reminded me of a little kid having a tantrum in the grocery store. He lied ABOUT OBAMA WHILE HE WAS IN THE ROOM!! HAHA! You can do that on TV, but not when the guy is standing right next to you. Is he new?
The Man said:
McSame looked so Bob Dole-ish, an angry arrogent old crotchety man that needs to go into retirement (and pimp Viagra!), but certainly NOT into the White House and into any type of leadership position. Sorry GOP, but the truth is the truth and we KNOW YOU SAW IT TOO!
McSame not ONCE even looked at Obama, like he is God Almighty and far to superior to look at the peasant before him. Give me a break, who could possibly want an angry out of touch old man in the White House at this critical juncture in our history?? Only the rightest of right wingers, the con-iest of the conmanservatives, but they are already lost to society anyway.
OBAMA/BIDEN ALL THE WAY FOR REAL CHANGE!!!
erv said:
check this site. i put in my company ticker and got the comparison of my wages compared to my CEOs. it turns out it would take me 140 years to earn what he did last year alone. http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/
Roxanne Johnson said:
I feel Obama won hands down. McCain again avoided answering the questions, distorting facts, and using outright lies and untruths to attack Obama. As a lower income working class individual and taxpayer, I feel McCain doesn't relate or understand what myself and my family suffer and endure everyday to make ends meet.
MW Spokane said:
I dont think I have yet to see Obama answer a question he has been asked without giving 3 answers to unrelated questions. Can this guy actually sit down and listen for a minute without interupting. Did your parents teach you anything Hussein Osama, oops, I mean Hussein Obama, or was it the nanny who did all that. I am a democrat, and this year I will vote republican, its the better choice for America.
Lets not forget the VP's. If I have to see bin Ladens, oops, I mean Bidens same answers over and over again im going to scream.
Anti-MW Spokane said:
Hey Mr. MW Spokane: You saw what you already planned on seeing whether you watched the debate or not, that is clear from your ignorant no-class remarks. Both candidates did a fair job, but you right wingers are trying so hard to focus peoples attention away from the 8 years of Bush/Cheney/GOP economics that have this country teetering on disaster and instead are trying to link Obama with terrorists..!? Your foolish games will NOT work on thinking Americans, they will only on the rest of your allies, you know the weak minded, lowly educated ultra right wing radical republicans and thier flock, who would never vote for a Democrat anyway, so who are you really fooling, no one but yourself!! So go find your weapons of mass destruction you idiot!
OBAMA/BIDEN 2008!! WE FEEL IT NOW!
just a guy said:
Anti-Spokane---It is easy to blame our financial crisis on the current admin but lets not forget that significant reforms were made to the loan and banking industry under the Clinton admin that contributed to the current economic situation. Now I do admit that the current admin could have changed these reforms had they had the forsight to see where we were headed and avert the current financial crisis. This they did not do. However 2 years ago John McCain was supporting a bill to refrom Freddie Mac and Sallie Mae to avoid this looming problem. He found himself unable to get this through the democrat controlled congress of the past 2 years. It is not only extremist right wingers who do not support Obama. It is very much a shame that any who do not support him are being labeled racist or ultra conservative. I cannot support a candidate who makes denigrating comments about citizens clinging to their religion and guns, or whoose wife can relate a point in recent adult life where she was proud of america for the first time, or who has numerous close associations with extremist anti-white and anti-democracy advocates in his past including convicted domestic terrorists whoose only publically stated regret for his actions was not blowing up enough buildings
The Truth said:
You have been smoking too much Rush L, O'Reilly and Hannity dude. McCain has some of the biggest players in Fannie Mae as part of his Election Team!! THey bailed on the company when the heat was coming down. That was not by accident either, McSame's support for them has been steady and unweilding. Your facts have the usual right wing spin on it and are far from accurate. And of course no right winger can go a day without beckoning us back to Clinton...C'mon, that was 8 years ago man, wake up! Its easy to blame the current administration, BECAUSE THE MESS IS THEIR FAULT!! I know and those that support Obama are all being called hippy liberals by the GOP, its same ol same ol! Grow up and quit listening to right wing propaganda, its damaging to read and to America. McSame had plenty of white supremesists on his payroll, but wisely got rid of them. Yeah, keep on talkin about Obama's childhood and link to terrorists, but your smoke screen will NOT WORK we see through your smelly BS!
C said:
Those GOPers should spend a few weeks watching BBC America for their news and block Fox Noise with their right wing biased spin. Try something neutral and see how the real truth is.
just a guy said:
THe absolute inability of Obama supporters to discuss differing views than theirs without personal attacks and name calling continues to astonish me. Hey "The Truth" I was not refering to links in his childhood. Those I agree with you are tenous and ridiculous assertions of right wing zelots. If you could actually have a legitmate conversation about the issues without resorting to personal attacks and name calling I would tell you that the relationships I refer to are with certain DOMESTIC terrorists. Think college professor and do a little research. Convicted terrorists I might add. Additionally yes Clinton was 8 years ago that does not change the fact that deregulation was done by his admin. Overall I happen to think he was a great president but that does not change this fact. As to McCain abandoning his Fannie Mae freinds this may also be fact but it was 2 years prior to the current financial crisis that he started trying to raise some alarm bells. This may have been for his own personal reasons not the altrustic ones put forth by his campaign but all the same he did so. And yes he does have some people formerly of these organizations working on his campaign and Barack is formerly of an organization that has been convicted and is currently under multiple investigations for voting fraud. And yes McCain has his own scandel in the past with the Savings and Loan debacle.
Obama supporters scare me. An inability to hold a rational conversation on the merits of both candidates without resorting to name calling and insults is disturbing. I am not a right winger but I refuse to be a sheep. One post after mine said I should stop watching Fox News. Well for the record I do not watch Fox news but by the same token maybe you should stop watching ABC. NBC, CBS, BBC, NPR, MTV, or any of the other dozens of news sources that have been trying to cram down our through that Obama is our saviour for the last six months. Think for yourself and vote for who you believe in whoever that might be and in the meantime lets have some thoughtful meaningful discussion of the issues.
AntiJust a Guy said:
Domestic terrorists? Dude, I have news for you, you are a closet Right Winger, sorry, but the when the shoe fits, we cannot acquit!
These baseless charges have nothing to do with any of the issues of today dude, and you know it. They are distractions put out there by a desperate GOP ticket that is trailing in EVERY poll taken amd are getting worse for them each day, and again, you know that to be true and accurate. Way to skirt the issues though. You totally avoid the facts that McCain has several now former Fannie Mae execs serving on his campaign. They got their millions and quit, and seek shelter from "their savior." Mccain may have brought up legislation against them, but he damn well did not pursue it against them or any Big business. Be it Oil, drug companies, etc, he is a true sell out to the Man (the corporate man of course).
Nobody is painting Obama as a savior but the right wingers (which you have made clear you are one despite your pitiful denials). No Obama supporter feels he is any savior, but rather the opposite, McCain is viewed as Bush III, which he is, and all know it. Therefore, any young, bright and energetic man with solid ideas is viewed positively, not savior-ity. So, come down off your high horse, you and your McCain supporters are going down and you know it, so you can ramble on about terrorists, and preachers, but in the end YOU (and your right wing savior) ARE GOING DOWN and YOU KNOW IT! So ramble on, but your words mean nothing to anyone, while mine speak for the majority of Americans as evidenced in the polls! So deal with it for the next 4 years and hopefully 8! Ouch, that must hurt....
Just A Guy said:
Anti-me: Again with the name calling. You show your absolute lack of a legitimate arguement. Obamas association with William Ayers is not baseless it is factual check into it. Nor is Ayers conviction for bombing buildings as part of the Weather underground. Nor is his statement that he only regrest not doing it enough. If you had read my post you proved the point I was making you and the majority of others have an absolute inability to discuss the issues in rational intelligent manner. I keep hoping to see an intelligent well thought out post from an Obama support. Someone who can make an effective logical argument and remove the emotion and anger from it. So far I have not found such a person do they exist?
Just A Guy said:
To add further to the above post. I am really shocked to find that no Obama supporters appear to be able to see the failings of their candidate they simply try to say it is not true. I do not deny in any way shape or form that McCain has his failings. The Savings and Loan deal, having the Fannie Mae execs on his campaign staff, etc....these are true facts. Ones that are a negative indication of his ability to be a great president. These things are true. Additionally I disagree with his stance on gay marriage and abotrtion. Fortunately however the prez. hardly has the ability to change supreme court rulings so I believe we will be ok there. Now looking accross the isle here is what I see. I see a candidate with very very little experience. He is known to associate with people who are racist and terrorist. DOwn play this all you want but to me as a proud American this is a big problem. He came up through government in Chicago. See how well he led there? One of the highest rates of homicide in the country. I do not support the creation of a welfare state. I do not support the continued insult to minorities that is affirmative action. I do not believe that socialized medicine is the way to go. I do not believe that we need or want people to increase their reliance on the governement to take care of them. I do believe that foreign policy is tantamount to our future in this country and that Mr Obama is not qualified to fill this roll. So unfortunately in my opinion I am forced to choose between the lesser of 2 evils in this election and for me and my family that is McCain. Again Obama supporters lets remove the emotion and name calling and talk facts and debate the issues like the rational intelligent adults that I certainly hope we all are.
C said:
So are you saying that the current Republican Party leadership doesn't have ties with any person at all that did something wrong in his lifetime ?
Besides that .. the guy wasn't even convicted. If it was such a big deal he would still be in jail or in Guantanamo Bay getting waterboarded right?
While you don't think socialized healthcare is the way to go .. the other option we're having now doesn't seem to be too much better. Right now I'll take that gamble over having to pay a fortune each month to be able to take my kid to the doctor.
I really don't think that someone who acts so erratic in stress situations like how McCain did with when he suspended his campaign is going to do us ANY good at all. A president has to be able to juggle many tasks at the same time .. you can't simply stop doing one thing because something else happens. It shows to me a complete uttermost lack of leadership qualities and only makes people more nervous. If you speak about lack of experience I think that is simply a dud point you are trying to make vs Palin. Last time Palin describes her house she said she could see the moon from her deck. Next up she is qualified as astronaut ;)
As far as tying Obama to racists .. ever done some research on McCain supporters ? Think there probably are some interesting people there as well. Obama is a much better choice and with close to 75% of the world in favor of dealing with him (and the fact that right now we need the support from other countries because the current administration got us in a financial mess), he is going to get much more done then a Maverick and a Mrs Maverick (just using their own words there)
Just A Guy said:
Thank you C. for proving to me that there are some Obama supporters who can make a rational argument on behalf of their candidate without resulting to insults and name calling. I do appreciate that. Well thought out and well written post and you make some very good points.
I will not argue that Palin is more experienced than Biden. However as far as being the Head of an organization or the person where the buck stops she does have more experience than Obama. Of course being Governor of Alaska in no way compares to the level of responsibility that comes with a federal post. As to McCains past ties to racists if there are some I would be very interested to know about them. As to the who the rest of the world prefers be our president???? Hmmmm what can I say other than who cares. This is the American president not the world president. And the reason they would rather deal with him? Maybe it is because he will be easier to help with THEIR agenda which may or may not be in the best interest of the American people.
Again thanks for the post without the knee jerk name calling I have recieved from so many others. Either way the election goes I am just happy to live in a country where we have something of a choice and can debate the issues and then vote as we want.
C said:
The ties between Ayers and Obama are pretty much non existing and irrelevant. Even CNN's review of project records found nothing to suggest anything inappropriate in the volunteer projects in which the two men were involved. It was simply a volunteer project 35 years after the fact and they crossep. Regarding McCains controversial ties ... I don't have to go much further than Charlie Black who is actually his advisor .. quite a step further than someone you worked with for a volunteer project 10 years ago like Obama.
Black was a founding partner in lobbying powerhouse Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly, and its successor BKSH & Associates. During his time there, Black and his partners the firm did work acted as registered foreign agents for a number of controversial regimes and oppositional figures, including Jonas Savimbi, the Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos, Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire, Nigerian General Ibrahim Babangida, Somali President Mohamed Siad Barre, the Embassy of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and the countries of Kenya and Equatorial Guinea, among others. (Not exactly the kinda low end crooks on the street).
Also as a freshman congressman in the early 1980s, John McCain did not disclose his connections to a controversial group that was implicated in a secretive plot to supply arms to Nicaraguan militia groups during the Iran-Contra affair (whoops).
At the same level as Obama's relationship, John McCain attended Reverend Hagee's church. Reverend Hagee is widely known for his quotes like: "Nazis "operated on God's behalf" to drive Jews from Europe to Israel." and anti-Catholic remarks describing the church as a "great whore".
Whether you like the foreign countries agenda's or not .. wihtout the international assistance, the financial world is going to collapse. We simply have to realize that the United States no longer is the almighty superpower that rules the entire globe.
Just A Guy said:
Thanks C for pointing out a few things I did not know about in regards to Mr Black. I will address how I see that in a moment. However I must first correct you on the connection between McCain and Hagee. No one has ever alleged that McCain has ever attended his church. McCain and Hagee have said he did not attend his church nor has the Obama campaign said he attended that church. What did occur was that Haggee was an earlier endorser of McCains in the election and McCain (i would hope not knowing much about haggee) enthusiastically accepted his endorsement. However when he was informed of statements made by Mr. Haggee reversed his acceptance of the endorsment.
As to Charlie Black i guess I see it like this. He worked with or for people who are distasteful to say the least however none of them present a clear and present threat to me and my family. The people Obama is tied to do. As far as Iran-Contra I personally think providing arms down there was the way we should have went anyways. So no harm there.
There is a reason we are not the superpower we once were. We are trying to make everyone in the world happy with us. We are unable to do that. We should try to be a good neighbor and citizen of the world but always put American and Americans interests first. I believe that is essential for our continued quality of life. I do not believe Obama has the backbone or the will to do so. I am not embarassed to be an American. And think our president should be very proud of the fact that he is as well I am not sure Obama is and know damn well his wife is not.....well until just recently. Patriotism is not a disease it is what has made our country great and yes american petriotism has also improved the quality of life for the entire world. (think dead nazi's)
Although I disagree with you I do appreciate the fact that you are the only Obama supporter I have met in person or otherwise who can intelligently state their case without immediately resorting to an emotional name calling rant. Why is this? I am truly curious.
C said:
If I could only reveal my identity it would spoil me being able to post and be sometimes highly critical. Lets just leave it at that :)
Of course you should put your own interests first, however one can't ignore that its the rest of the world that buys our good and provides us with vital energy at the moment. What happens to US jobs you think if people stop buying GM or Ford vehicles in the rest of the world ? These companies who are already on the brink of collapse would fall over with catastrophic results. Think of it as the butterfly effect .. all pieces are tied together and alienating yourself or going against the rest in ignorance will do more harm then good.
One of the big things that has irked me for months now is the 'drill now for oil of the coasts' screams. This is a perfect example of opportunistic politics as there is a slight itty bitty problem with that. To drill for oil offshore you'll need drillships to find it. All of the ships available worldwide are already booked up for the next 7-10 years doing other projects and there is a 5+ year waiting list for ships to be build .. each at a cost of 500 million dollars. Nothing is going to happen for at least a decade (let alone actually putting the additional infrastructure in to support that). We should pursue other options that can have a much faster result AND ones that can be developed/manufactured in the USA creating jobs. Right now all of these ships are not build in the US .. they are build in Taiwan and Korea ... which doesn't add a single job to the US economy.
As you said Patriotism isn't a disease. Instead people should be proud when they see their flag or feel something special when they hear their national anthem. What I am concerned about when patriotism is being exploited and being forced upon people. We are still individuals who are entitled to their own opinions and we should be grateful for that as that isn't the case in many other places in the world. That is why I so despise Charlie Black. You might not think that he 'directly' affects your family, but what he did goes directly against everything that the USA constitution stands for .. and having someone like that in an advisor position only makes me shudder knowing what he has adviced to the list of his previous clients.
Anti-Just a Guy said:
Again, you right wingers try and try to distract voters by calling Obama a terrorist, a communist, etc, etc. Obama worked with Mr. Ayers on a CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, along with many other folks. Yet Fox not News will NEVER tell their viewers that all too critical fact now will they..? Professor Ayers was just that when Obama knew him, a college professor, not a bomb maker, like you so desperatly try to paint. He went to jail, paid his dues and turned his life around and became a respectable college professor. End of story.
These are all just distractions put out there by a desperate GOP in order to get the focus of America off the failed economy, a failed occupation of Iraq, a losing war in Afghanistan, corrupt GOP (Ted Stevens, Sarah Palin, Scooter Libby, etc., etc.), but it only works with the small minded ultra right wingers, who would never vote for a democrat anyway...so they just look stupid to the majority of thinking Americans, which "Just A guy" is clearly NOT.
C said:
Just-a-guy is looking for an honest discussion based upon facts and I respect that. It is hard these days to do that as the only thing that is being done is to drive the people that support either party apart .. which could result catastrophic. Greatly concerning are the 'kill him' remarks from people during political rallies, which in my opinion go far beyond any democratic process. Remember .. it only takes one crazy guy to do something we all hope will never happen again.
The whole Ayers case is simply an attempt to distract people from the real thing. I want the candidates to simply speak and say what they are going to do without calling eachother names. I don't care that the other guy wears pink underwear or has had a nosejob or lives in a neighborhood where someone actually loves driving that Ford Pinto .. really .. I don't care. If you get elected .. what are you going to do that will affect my life.
Lately the buzzword is socialism .. its like this scary thing that people think is like the old communism where everyone is standing in a row to collect their weekly loaf of bread. The US tax law that was created nearly a century ago already does what McCain says is 'socialism'. The rich get taxed more than the poor. Obama's plan isn't anything different except for tweaking a smaller amount there. Again they are scare tactics to divert the attention from actually solving the problem.
I'm sorry .. if all McCain can offer is saying the other person is a terrorist or socialist .. without being actually clear on what he is going to do .. you're not getting my vote.
just a guy said:
C thanks for pointing my previous post where I stated I was looking for a rational discussion of the issues. Mr. Anti-me you bring to light once again the inability to discuss rationally the issues of the impending election without name calling. I am not a right winger nor do I watch Fox news. I like you am truly sickened by their bias. They are by far the most biased of all the networks. But recognize that the others all of them are inputing their own bias on these issues as well. I try to READ from multiple news sources. Dont do to much TV news the whole thing makes me sick. I figure if I read alot of different approaches to the stories the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I agree with C in his statement that the candidates should simply state what they are going to do as president and stop with the name calling. But that being said I do need to correct you on a few things Obama's connection with Mr Ayers goes a bit deeper than the project you mentioned. I wont go into specifics but it does go deeper do a little research. And my issue Mr. Ayers is that he is an unrepetent terrorist by his own admission. You allege in your post that I called Obama a terrorist.....incorrect sir I never did call Obama a terrorist. My primary issue with Mr Obama is that he wants to penalize the successfull in our society and give handouts to the lazy. This is not the American way. That would be the net result of his tax plan. I also fear that he is a racist and know that he is supported by many who are. That I cannot stand behind. I really dont care what religion he is....I also give no credence to the nonsense of him being born outside the US. I simply do not trust the man. And additionally am seriously scared by the knee jerk emotional reaction and name calling his supporters resort to when someone expresses and opinion other than theirs.
And before you start in with me being one of the elite....or priviledged white who is trying to keep the poor down let me tell you a little about my background....I was raised very poor by a working class family...At 19 I made some terrible decisions and found myself incarcerated for five year...Upon my release I had nothing and no one...I took a low paying job and went to work rebuilding my life...Now 10-years later I am married and work for a great company in mid-management position and make just shy of 90k per year. I live the American Dream every day of my life I do not want that jepordized.
Again I reiterate my plea lets have a rational discussion of the issues. No name calling needed.
C said:
What Obama wants to do with his tax plan isn't anything different then what the current IRS tax code already does. Rich people pay more than people who are less fortunate .. so tell me what is so different about his plan ?
Would this mean our current IRS tax code is socialistic and that all the previous administrations have been socialistic all along ?
Here is an abstract of how the taxes roughly are:
The first $7,825 of taxable income is taxed at 10%
from $7,826 to $31,850 is taxed at 15%
from $31,851 to $77,100 is taxed at 25%
from $77,101 to $160,850 is taxed at 28%
from $160,851 to $349,700 is taxed at 33% and
anything over $349,701 is taxed at 35%.
(now these numbers might have slightly changed over the last 2 years .. haven't kept track and actually had to do some real work today which helps keep people having a job). So even with McCain .. you are going to pay more taxes once you start earning more money. Tell me .. what am I missing here?
Just A Guy said:
That looks about right on the tax code the more you make the more you pay I am down with that. So why do we need to further increase the burden or share of the upper middle class in order to give more to those who did not earn it? I do not believe that what obama wants to do with taxes is socialist. (Health care is another story) I also do not believe our current system is socialist. Paying taxes is the priveldge of having money in my opinion and I am happy to say that I have had to pay more and more every year for the last 10 years and truly desire to work myself into that 35% bracket. My question is why do we need to further increase the taxes on the other end and give tax cuts to those on the lower end? The current bracket system seems fair to me. With success comes a certain obligation to your country and community which I think is reflected in the current system. I simply do want to fund programs that reward complacency and laziness by taking money from those who are successful.
just a guy said:
One other comment back to the Anti-me guy....Regarding Mr Ayers having served his time and paid his dues.....This is incorrect Mr Ayers was in fact never prosecuted if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if I am wrong.
C said:
Just a guy .. remember .. this country is proud to say that you are innocent until proven guilty right ... at least thats what largely the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments say.
One of the points you are missing is that tax brackets change each year .. so whatever I wrote is going to change year over year. I'm myself not at 35% either, but once I'm at that point .. I really don't think I'll miss the 2k out of my pocket and I'll have piece of mind that those 2k might go to fund the school my kid goes to, the hospital my parents may be at or the road/bridge I'm driving over.
Yes innocent until proven or admitted guilty as is the case with Ayers. His guilt is not at question only the extent of his relationship with Mr Obama and the degree to which they are similiar in beliefs and approach.
As to taxes, I do not understand why everyone believes tax cuts for Corporations will be going directly into the pockets of fat cats of industry. I mean after all most working adults in this country own some small bit of corporate america either through direct ownership of shares, through their 401k or their pension. In our current economic situation one of the biggest things slowing growth is a lack of capital in the corporate sector. Operating lines of credit are being slashed and cancelled, deposits on new orders are slowing, and cash flow is at a new low. These companies cannot fund hiring, development, or expansion. A tax cut for them would be a direct infusion of capital and would directly help the American consumer and the world for that matter by prompting corporate spending. On the other side of the coin is giving tax cuts to people who are going to spend the money as end consumers so the benefit would not have the chance to multiply by passing through the system from the corporate level down resulting in additional jobs, oppertunities and reduced inflation.
c said:
Obama has said many times publicly that he does not support or endorses what Mr Ayers has done in the past. He does not ask for advice nor has been given advice. Charlie Black has all done that to McCain....and while we're at it Sarah Palin and her husband actually were members of any organization that sought to have Alaska declare independence from the US, something that I think can be considered treason.
Do you really think that Microsoft or Exxon are going to miss a few hundred million? If people get more money, they are going to spend it on goods which will keep the economy going. I am not convinced that the current tax plan is working seeing the situation we got ourselves in. I really dont think the consumer is going to notice anything from a few extra billion to the oilcompanies, after all, when they earned record profits, the gas was at a record high so they sure didnt pass some of those profits on to the consumer. Instead of investing billions in researching oil alternatives, their goal is to keep us using oil as long as possible.
Ever wondered how much 700 billion dollars could have gotten us in reducing our reliance on the middle east and china?
Just A Guy said:
Yes he denies supporting Ayers methods and beliefs but of course he would. He couldnt really stand up and say he thinks we should blow up buildings....He is a very smart guy afterall I just dont trust the man and dont believe him when he speaks. He is a little to slick for me. As to the corporate stuff you are focusing on a single industry....One that I agree should in no way recieve a tax cut they are price fixing and price gouging the american public into the poor house. So I would suggest that a corporate tax break be implemented and an additional tax be placed on the oil companies and better yet have their tax triggered and determined on a schedule based on national average gas prices. The more gas costs the more tax they pay. If national average price is over $3 they pay 20% above normal tax for that quarter. Our current tax structure has little to do with our current economic woes. It has more to do with silly regulatory changes that were made so institions would be encouraged to make loans to unqualified buyers cause we wanted to feel good about everyone buying a home. In my opinion anyways. And I will not even go into who made these changes because the current admin did not change them back so they are both culpable. As to the Palin thing that is interesting and obviously poor taste on her part. However treason is defined by the constitution as making war on the us or giving aid or comfort to our enemies. Being a secessionist is neither of those unless the take up weapons to secede
C said:
I guess we can maybe agree to disagree on the whole Ayers thing. When I hear McCain speak .. it scares me. BTW the regulations you spoke about were actually put in place by George W as he suggested making more and cheaper loans available to low income families. The problem was that all the failsafes that were built into the system to red flag problems were ignored as to say not to 'boo boo' progress and economic growth. You can read GW's entire speech at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html but then again .. isn't it always to blame things in hindsight ?
The tax rule for the oil companies is interesting, but I don't think it will work that way ... you'd think that the US has it bad with gas .. what do you think the Europeans think about their 10 dollars a gallon gas? They drive smaller and more fuel economic cars.
Pretty much, I expected Obama to constantly say uummm and uumm and stumble over his words. He didn't disappoint. He also kept interupting when it wasn't his turn to speak. He is very arrogant and he IS an elitist!!
McCain had the best answers but I'm not surprised.
McCain/Palin 08
Obama won hands down. He gave direct and succient answers whereas McCain just kept on mumbling the same junk the Bush keeps saying. You could tell that McCain was not telling the truth on most of his answers. The way McCain kept darting his tounge out constantly and not once did McCain look at Barack when speaking. Any pschologist will tell those are signs of someone hiding the truth. I've seen a few older folks that dart thier tounge out like a snake and everyone of them were in the begining stages of Alshemer(sp) disease. Poor McCain, he looks so confused most of the time. I'm a hardcore Reagan republican, but I cannot in good consious vote for McCain. Oh, I can't wait for Biden to put Palin in her place next week.
OBAMA 08, YES!!
Oh, one last item. If I hear anymore about 9/11 or about McCain being a POW, I'm gonna puke. Quit living in past McCain. Your party has ruled America for 8 years, 12 years of the Congress. Can anyone turely say they are better off now then 8 years ago. McCain is clueless about economic problems within the states, and the way McCain keeps harping about economic sanctions against Iran that don't work shows that McCain is also clueless on how to be a diplomat. By the way; anyone can try to label me as a liberal but they would be wrong. I'm voteing for Dino Rossi for Governer. I never vote the party line.
OBAMA 08
Rossi )*
so when is mccain going to resume his campaign? so was this debate a break in his suspension or is he officially back at it? what a bone headed move.
McCain at least showed up .. it would be interesting if Caribou Barbie is going to show up for the VP debate with Biden.
I heard and saw that McCain has "passed his prime" and I heard and saw that Obama is thoughtful and measured in his responses. He doesn't fly off the handle. He's reflective and intelligent, just like a President should be. My vote will go to Obama.
What I heard from one side...was an adult...for the other, a kid. Obama is far from being ready and he showed it. This proud hispanic voter is voting for the war hero, not the ACORN community organizer who's past relationships are questionable and troubling to most.
maybe this will help boost mccains polls.
http://community.adn.com/mini_apps/vmix/player.php?ID=2221420
check out these stories and videos from the anchorage daily news.
http://community.adn.com/?q=adn/blog/24417
One heartbeat away...
Sarah Palin appears once again on SNL
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042
If you grow up in Hawaii you're 'exotic.'
Grow up in Alaska eating mooseburgers, you're the quintessential
'American story.'
Similarly, if you name your kid Barack you're 'unpatriotic.'
Name your kids Trig and Track, you're 'colorful.'
If you're a Democrat and you make a VP pick without fully vetting the
individual you're 'reckless.'
A Republican who doesn't fully vet is a 'maverick.'
If you spend 3 years as a community organizer growing your organization from a
staff of 1 to 13 and your budget from $70,000 to $400,000, then become the first
black President of the Harvard Law Review,create a voter regstration drive that
registers 150,000 new African Amerian voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional
Law professor,then spend nearly 8 more years as a State Senator representing a
district with over 750,000 people, becoming chairman of the state Senate's
Health and Human Services committee, then spend nearly 4 years in the United
States Senate representing a state of nearly 13 million people, sponsoring 131
bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and
Veteran's Affairs committees, you are woefully inexperienced.
If you spend 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town
with less than 7,000 people, then spend 20 months as the governor of a state
with 650,000 people, you've got the most executive experience of anyone on
either ticket, are the Commander in Chief of the Alaska military and are well
qualified to lead the nation should you be called upon to do so because your
state is the closest state to Russia.
If you are a Demoratic male candidate who is popular with millions of people
you are an 'arrogant celebrity'.
If you are a popular Republican female candidate you are 'energizing the
base'.
M J .. I salute you .. that was very well written and it made my day :)
listening to mccain today was nauseating to say the least. he is talking about the action he took by suspending his campaign and obama did nothing, well i think we all know mccain really got in the way and used this as a photo op.
he is talking about obamas million a day ear marks so i looked at mccains involvment in the S&L scandal and his involvment costing the tax payers a billion in losses over a years time, i ran it thru my calculator and it cam up to $2,739,726.02 a day in losses. this isnt money being spent it is money lost. check out the link.
http://graphics.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Pluck_leaks_helped_senator_to_overcome_S_L_scandal+.shtml
McCain reminded me of a little kid having a tantrum in the grocery store. He lied ABOUT OBAMA WHILE HE WAS IN THE ROOM!! HAHA! You can do that on TV, but not when the guy is standing right next to you. Is he new?
McSame looked so Bob Dole-ish, an angry arrogent old crotchety man that needs to go into retirement (and pimp Viagra!), but certainly NOT into the White House and into any type of leadership position. Sorry GOP, but the truth is the truth and we KNOW YOU SAW IT TOO!
McSame not ONCE even looked at Obama, like he is God Almighty and far to superior to look at the peasant before him. Give me a break, who could possibly want an angry out of touch old man in the White House at this critical juncture in our history?? Only the rightest of right wingers, the con-iest of the conmanservatives, but they are already lost to society anyway.
OBAMA/BIDEN ALL THE WAY FOR REAL CHANGE!!!
check this site. i put in my company ticker and got the comparison of my wages compared to my CEOs. it turns out it would take me 140 years to earn what he did last year alone.
http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/
I feel Obama won hands down. McCain again avoided answering the questions, distorting facts, and using outright lies and untruths to attack Obama. As a lower income working class individual and taxpayer, I feel McCain doesn't relate or understand what myself and my family suffer and endure everyday to make ends meet.
I dont think I have yet to see Obama answer a question he has been asked without giving 3 answers to unrelated questions. Can this guy actually sit down and listen for a minute without interupting. Did your parents teach you anything Hussein Osama, oops, I mean Hussein Obama, or was it the nanny who did all that. I am a democrat, and this year I will vote republican, its the better choice for America.
Lets not forget the VP's. If I have to see bin Ladens, oops, I mean Bidens same answers over and over again im going to scream.
Hey Mr. MW Spokane: You saw what you already planned on seeing whether you watched the debate or not, that is clear from your ignorant no-class remarks. Both candidates did a fair job, but you right wingers are trying so hard to focus peoples attention away from the 8 years of Bush/Cheney/GOP economics that have this country teetering on disaster and instead are trying to link Obama with terrorists..!? Your foolish games will NOT work on thinking Americans, they will only on the rest of your allies, you know the weak minded, lowly educated ultra right wing radical republicans and thier flock, who would never vote for a Democrat anyway, so who are you really fooling, no one but yourself!! So go find your weapons of mass destruction you idiot!
OBAMA/BIDEN 2008!! WE FEEL IT NOW!
Anti-Spokane---It is easy to blame our financial crisis on the current admin but lets not forget that significant reforms were made to the loan and banking industry under the Clinton admin that contributed to the current economic situation. Now I do admit that the current admin could have changed these reforms had they had the forsight to see where we were headed and avert the current financial crisis. This they did not do. However 2 years ago John McCain was supporting a bill to refrom Freddie Mac and Sallie Mae to avoid this looming problem. He found himself unable to get this through the democrat controlled congress of the past 2 years. It is not only extremist right wingers who do not support Obama. It is very much a shame that any who do not support him are being labeled racist or ultra conservative. I cannot support a candidate who makes denigrating comments about citizens clinging to their religion and guns, or whoose wife can relate a point in recent adult life where she was proud of america for the first time, or who has numerous close associations with extremist anti-white and anti-democracy advocates in his past including convicted domestic terrorists whoose only publically stated regret for his actions was not blowing up enough buildings
You have been smoking too much Rush L, O'Reilly and Hannity dude. McCain has some of the biggest players in Fannie Mae as part of his Election Team!! THey bailed on the company when the heat was coming down. That was not by accident either, McSame's support for them has been steady and unweilding. Your facts have the usual right wing spin on it and are far from accurate. And of course no right winger can go a day without beckoning us back to Clinton...C'mon, that was 8 years ago man, wake up! Its easy to blame the current administration, BECAUSE THE MESS IS THEIR FAULT!! I know and those that support Obama are all being called hippy liberals by the GOP, its same ol same ol! Grow up and quit listening to right wing propaganda, its damaging to read and to America. McSame had plenty of white supremesists on his payroll, but wisely got rid of them. Yeah, keep on talkin about Obama's childhood and link to terrorists, but your smoke screen will NOT WORK we see through your smelly BS!
Those GOPers should spend a few weeks watching BBC America for their news and block Fox Noise with their right wing biased spin. Try something neutral and see how the real truth is.
THe absolute inability of Obama supporters to discuss differing views than theirs without personal attacks and name calling continues to astonish me. Hey "The Truth" I was not refering to links in his childhood. Those I agree with you are tenous and ridiculous assertions of right wing zelots. If you could actually have a legitmate conversation about the issues without resorting to personal attacks and name calling I would tell you that the relationships I refer to are with certain DOMESTIC terrorists. Think college professor and do a little research. Convicted terrorists I might add. Additionally yes Clinton was 8 years ago that does not change the fact that deregulation was done by his admin. Overall I happen to think he was a great president but that does not change this fact. As to McCain abandoning his Fannie Mae freinds this may also be fact but it was 2 years prior to the current financial crisis that he started trying to raise some alarm bells. This may have been for his own personal reasons not the altrustic ones put forth by his campaign but all the same he did so. And yes he does have some people formerly of these organizations working on his campaign and Barack is formerly of an organization that has been convicted and is currently under multiple investigations for voting fraud. And yes McCain has his own scandel in the past with the Savings and Loan debacle.
Obama supporters scare me. An inability to hold a rational conversation on the merits of both candidates without resorting to name calling and insults is disturbing. I am not a right winger but I refuse to be a sheep. One post after mine said I should stop watching Fox News. Well for the record I do not watch Fox news but by the same token maybe you should stop watching ABC. NBC, CBS, BBC, NPR, MTV, or any of the other dozens of news sources that have been trying to cram down our through that Obama is our saviour for the last six months. Think for yourself and vote for who you believe in whoever that might be and in the meantime lets have some thoughtful meaningful discussion of the issues.
Domestic terrorists? Dude, I have news for you, you are a closet Right Winger, sorry, but the when the shoe fits, we cannot acquit!
These baseless charges have nothing to do with any of the issues of today dude, and you know it. They are distractions put out there by a desperate GOP ticket that is trailing in EVERY poll taken amd are getting worse for them each day, and again, you know that to be true and accurate. Way to skirt the issues though. You totally avoid the facts that McCain has several now former Fannie Mae execs serving on his campaign. They got their millions and quit, and seek shelter from "their savior." Mccain may have brought up legislation against them, but he damn well did not pursue it against them or any Big business. Be it Oil, drug companies, etc, he is a true sell out to the Man (the corporate man of course).
Nobody is painting Obama as a savior but the right wingers (which you have made clear you are one despite your pitiful denials). No Obama supporter feels he is any savior, but rather the opposite, McCain is viewed as Bush III, which he is, and all know it. Therefore, any young, bright and energetic man with solid ideas is viewed positively, not savior-ity. So, come down off your high horse, you and your McCain supporters are going down and you know it, so you can ramble on about terrorists, and preachers, but in the end YOU (and your right wing savior) ARE GOING DOWN and YOU KNOW IT! So ramble on, but your words mean nothing to anyone, while mine speak for the majority of Americans as evidenced in the polls! So deal with it for the next 4 years and hopefully 8! Ouch, that must hurt....
Anti-me: Again with the name calling. You show your absolute lack of a legitimate arguement. Obamas association with William Ayers is not baseless it is factual check into it. Nor is Ayers conviction for bombing buildings as part of the Weather underground. Nor is his statement that he only regrest not doing it enough. If you had read my post you proved the point I was making you and the majority of others have an absolute inability to discuss the issues in rational intelligent manner. I keep hoping to see an intelligent well thought out post from an Obama support. Someone who can make an effective logical argument and remove the emotion and anger from it. So far I have not found such a person do they exist?
To add further to the above post. I am really shocked to find that no Obama supporters appear to be able to see the failings of their candidate they simply try to say it is not true. I do not deny in any way shape or form that McCain has his failings. The Savings and Loan deal, having the Fannie Mae execs on his campaign staff, etc....these are true facts. Ones that are a negative indication of his ability to be a great president. These things are true. Additionally I disagree with his stance on gay marriage and abotrtion. Fortunately however the prez. hardly has the ability to change supreme court rulings so I believe we will be ok there. Now looking accross the isle here is what I see. I see a candidate with very very little experience. He is known to associate with people who are racist and terrorist. DOwn play this all you want but to me as a proud American this is a big problem. He came up through government in Chicago. See how well he led there? One of the highest rates of homicide in the country. I do not support the creation of a welfare state. I do not support the continued insult to minorities that is affirmative action. I do not believe that socialized medicine is the way to go. I do not believe that we need or want people to increase their reliance on the governement to take care of them. I do believe that foreign policy is tantamount to our future in this country and that Mr Obama is not qualified to fill this roll. So unfortunately in my opinion I am forced to choose between the lesser of 2 evils in this election and for me and my family that is McCain. Again Obama supporters lets remove the emotion and name calling and talk facts and debate the issues like the rational intelligent adults that I certainly hope we all are.
So are you saying that the current Republican Party leadership doesn't have ties with any person at all that did something wrong in his lifetime ?
Besides that .. the guy wasn't even convicted. If it was such a big deal he would still be in jail or in Guantanamo Bay getting waterboarded right?
While you don't think socialized healthcare is the way to go .. the other option we're having now doesn't seem to be too much better. Right now I'll take that gamble over having to pay a fortune each month to be able to take my kid to the doctor.
I really don't think that someone who acts so erratic in stress situations like how McCain did with when he suspended his campaign is going to do us ANY good at all. A president has to be able to juggle many tasks at the same time .. you can't simply stop doing one thing because something else happens. It shows to me a complete uttermost lack of leadership qualities and only makes people more nervous. If you speak about lack of experience I think that is simply a dud point you are trying to make vs Palin. Last time Palin describes her house she said she could see the moon from her deck. Next up she is qualified as astronaut ;)
As far as tying Obama to racists .. ever done some research on McCain supporters ? Think there probably are some interesting people there as well. Obama is a much better choice and with close to 75% of the world in favor of dealing with him (and the fact that right now we need the support from other countries because the current administration got us in a financial mess), he is going to get much more done then a Maverick and a Mrs Maverick (just using their own words there)
Thank you C. for proving to me that there are some Obama supporters who can make a rational argument on behalf of their candidate without resulting to insults and name calling. I do appreciate that. Well thought out and well written post and you make some very good points.
I will not argue that Palin is more experienced than Biden. However as far as being the Head of an organization or the person where the buck stops she does have more experience than Obama. Of course being Governor of Alaska in no way compares to the level of responsibility that comes with a federal post. As to McCains past ties to racists if there are some I would be very interested to know about them. As to the who the rest of the world prefers be our president???? Hmmmm what can I say other than who cares. This is the American president not the world president. And the reason they would rather deal with him? Maybe it is because he will be easier to help with THEIR agenda which may or may not be in the best interest of the American people.
Again thanks for the post without the knee jerk name calling I have recieved from so many others. Either way the election goes I am just happy to live in a country where we have something of a choice and can debate the issues and then vote as we want.
The ties between Ayers and Obama are pretty much non existing and irrelevant. Even CNN's review of project records found nothing to suggest anything inappropriate in the volunteer projects in which the two men were involved. It was simply a volunteer project 35 years after the fact and they crossep. Regarding McCains controversial ties ... I don't have to go much further than Charlie Black who is actually his advisor .. quite a step further than someone you worked with for a volunteer project 10 years ago like Obama.
Black was a founding partner in lobbying powerhouse Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly, and its successor BKSH & Associates. During his time there, Black and his partners the firm did work acted as registered foreign agents for a number of controversial regimes and oppositional figures, including Jonas Savimbi, the Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos, Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire, Nigerian General Ibrahim Babangida, Somali President Mohamed Siad Barre, the Embassy of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and the countries of Kenya and Equatorial Guinea, among others. (Not exactly the kinda low end crooks on the street).
Also as a freshman congressman in the early 1980s, John McCain did not disclose his connections to a controversial group that was implicated in a secretive plot to supply arms to Nicaraguan militia groups during the Iran-Contra affair (whoops).
At the same level as Obama's relationship, John McCain attended Reverend Hagee's church. Reverend Hagee is widely known for his quotes like: "Nazis "operated on God's behalf" to drive Jews from Europe to Israel." and anti-Catholic remarks describing the church as a "great whore".
Whether you like the foreign countries agenda's or not .. wihtout the international assistance, the financial world is going to collapse. We simply have to realize that the United States no longer is the almighty superpower that rules the entire globe.
Thanks C for pointing out a few things I did not know about in regards to Mr Black. I will address how I see that in a moment. However I must first correct you on the connection between McCain and Hagee. No one has ever alleged that McCain has ever attended his church. McCain and Hagee have said he did not attend his church nor has the Obama campaign said he attended that church. What did occur was that Haggee was an earlier endorser of McCains in the election and McCain (i would hope not knowing much about haggee) enthusiastically accepted his endorsement. However when he was informed of statements made by Mr. Haggee reversed his acceptance of the endorsment.
As to Charlie Black i guess I see it like this. He worked with or for people who are distasteful to say the least however none of them present a clear and present threat to me and my family. The people Obama is tied to do. As far as Iran-Contra I personally think providing arms down there was the way we should have went anyways. So no harm there.
There is a reason we are not the superpower we once were. We are trying to make everyone in the world happy with us. We are unable to do that. We should try to be a good neighbor and citizen of the world but always put American and Americans interests first. I believe that is essential for our continued quality of life. I do not believe Obama has the backbone or the will to do so. I am not embarassed to be an American. And think our president should be very proud of the fact that he is as well I am not sure Obama is and know damn well his wife is not.....well until just recently. Patriotism is not a disease it is what has made our country great and yes american petriotism has also improved the quality of life for the entire world. (think dead nazi's)
Although I disagree with you I do appreciate the fact that you are the only Obama supporter I have met in person or otherwise who can intelligently state their case without immediately resorting to an emotional name calling rant. Why is this? I am truly curious.
If I could only reveal my identity it would spoil me being able to post and be sometimes highly critical. Lets just leave it at that :)
Of course you should put your own interests first, however one can't ignore that its the rest of the world that buys our good and provides us with vital energy at the moment. What happens to US jobs you think if people stop buying GM or Ford vehicles in the rest of the world ? These companies who are already on the brink of collapse would fall over with catastrophic results. Think of it as the butterfly effect .. all pieces are tied together and alienating yourself or going against the rest in ignorance will do more harm then good.
One of the big things that has irked me for months now is the 'drill now for oil of the coasts' screams. This is a perfect example of opportunistic politics as there is a slight itty bitty problem with that. To drill for oil offshore you'll need drillships to find it. All of the ships available worldwide are already booked up for the next 7-10 years doing other projects and there is a 5+ year waiting list for ships to be build .. each at a cost of 500 million dollars. Nothing is going to happen for at least a decade (let alone actually putting the additional infrastructure in to support that). We should pursue other options that can have a much faster result AND ones that can be developed/manufactured in the USA creating jobs. Right now all of these ships are not build in the US .. they are build in Taiwan and Korea ... which doesn't add a single job to the US economy.
As you said Patriotism isn't a disease. Instead people should be proud when they see their flag or feel something special when they hear their national anthem. What I am concerned about when patriotism is being exploited and being forced upon people. We are still individuals who are entitled to their own opinions and we should be grateful for that as that isn't the case in many other places in the world. That is why I so despise Charlie Black. You might not think that he 'directly' affects your family, but what he did goes directly against everything that the USA constitution stands for .. and having someone like that in an advisor position only makes me shudder knowing what he has adviced to the list of his previous clients.
Again, you right wingers try and try to distract voters by calling Obama a terrorist, a communist, etc, etc. Obama worked with Mr. Ayers on a CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, along with many other folks. Yet Fox not News will NEVER tell their viewers that all too critical fact now will they..? Professor Ayers was just that when Obama knew him, a college professor, not a bomb maker, like you so desperatly try to paint. He went to jail, paid his dues and turned his life around and became a respectable college professor. End of story.
These are all just distractions put out there by a desperate GOP in order to get the focus of America off the failed economy, a failed occupation of Iraq, a losing war in Afghanistan, corrupt GOP (Ted Stevens, Sarah Palin, Scooter Libby, etc., etc.), but it only works with the small minded ultra right wingers, who would never vote for a democrat anyway...so they just look stupid to the majority of thinking Americans, which "Just A guy" is clearly NOT.
Just-a-guy is looking for an honest discussion based upon facts and I respect that. It is hard these days to do that as the only thing that is being done is to drive the people that support either party apart .. which could result catastrophic. Greatly concerning are the 'kill him' remarks from people during political rallies, which in my opinion go far beyond any democratic process. Remember .. it only takes one crazy guy to do something we all hope will never happen again.
The whole Ayers case is simply an attempt to distract people from the real thing. I want the candidates to simply speak and say what they are going to do without calling eachother names. I don't care that the other guy wears pink underwear or has had a nosejob or lives in a neighborhood where someone actually loves driving that Ford Pinto .. really .. I don't care. If you get elected .. what are you going to do that will affect my life.
Lately the buzzword is socialism .. its like this scary thing that people think is like the old communism where everyone is standing in a row to collect their weekly loaf of bread. The US tax law that was created nearly a century ago already does what McCain says is 'socialism'. The rich get taxed more than the poor. Obama's plan isn't anything different except for tweaking a smaller amount there. Again they are scare tactics to divert the attention from actually solving the problem.
I'm sorry .. if all McCain can offer is saying the other person is a terrorist or socialist .. without being actually clear on what he is going to do .. you're not getting my vote.
C thanks for pointing my previous post where I stated I was looking for a rational discussion of the issues. Mr. Anti-me you bring to light once again the inability to discuss rationally the issues of the impending election without name calling. I am not a right winger nor do I watch Fox news. I like you am truly sickened by their bias. They are by far the most biased of all the networks. But recognize that the others all of them are inputing their own bias on these issues as well. I try to READ from multiple news sources. Dont do to much TV news the whole thing makes me sick. I figure if I read alot of different approaches to the stories the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I agree with C in his statement that the candidates should simply state what they are going to do as president and stop with the name calling. But that being said I do need to correct you on a few things Obama's connection with Mr Ayers goes a bit deeper than the project you mentioned. I wont go into specifics but it does go deeper do a little research. And my issue Mr. Ayers is that he is an unrepetent terrorist by his own admission. You allege in your post that I called Obama a terrorist.....incorrect sir I never did call Obama a terrorist. My primary issue with Mr Obama is that he wants to penalize the successfull in our society and give handouts to the lazy. This is not the American way. That would be the net result of his tax plan. I also fear that he is a racist and know that he is supported by many who are. That I cannot stand behind. I really dont care what religion he is....I also give no credence to the nonsense of him being born outside the US. I simply do not trust the man. And additionally am seriously scared by the knee jerk emotional reaction and name calling his supporters resort to when someone expresses and opinion other than theirs.
And before you start in with me being one of the elite....or priviledged white who is trying to keep the poor down let me tell you a little about my background....I was raised very poor by a working class family...At 19 I made some terrible decisions and found myself incarcerated for five year...Upon my release I had nothing and no one...I took a low paying job and went to work rebuilding my life...Now 10-years later I am married and work for a great company in mid-management position and make just shy of 90k per year. I live the American Dream every day of my life I do not want that jepordized.
Again I reiterate my plea lets have a rational discussion of the issues. No name calling needed.
What Obama wants to do with his tax plan isn't anything different then what the current IRS tax code already does. Rich people pay more than people who are less fortunate .. so tell me what is so different about his plan ?
Would this mean our current IRS tax code is socialistic and that all the previous administrations have been socialistic all along ?
Here is an abstract of how the taxes roughly are:
The first $7,825 of taxable income is taxed at 10%
from $7,826 to $31,850 is taxed at 15%
from $31,851 to $77,100 is taxed at 25%
from $77,101 to $160,850 is taxed at 28%
from $160,851 to $349,700 is taxed at 33% and
anything over $349,701 is taxed at 35%.
(now these numbers might have slightly changed over the last 2 years .. haven't kept track and actually had to do some real work today which helps keep people having a job). So even with McCain .. you are going to pay more taxes once you start earning more money. Tell me .. what am I missing here?
That looks about right on the tax code the more you make the more you pay I am down with that. So why do we need to further increase the burden or share of the upper middle class in order to give more to those who did not earn it? I do not believe that what obama wants to do with taxes is socialist. (Health care is another story) I also do not believe our current system is socialist. Paying taxes is the priveldge of having money in my opinion and I am happy to say that I have had to pay more and more every year for the last 10 years and truly desire to work myself into that 35% bracket. My question is why do we need to further increase the taxes on the other end and give tax cuts to those on the lower end? The current bracket system seems fair to me. With success comes a certain obligation to your country and community which I think is reflected in the current system. I simply do want to fund programs that reward complacency and laziness by taking money from those who are successful.
One other comment back to the Anti-me guy....Regarding Mr Ayers having served his time and paid his dues.....This is incorrect Mr Ayers was in fact never prosecuted if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just a guy .. remember .. this country is proud to say that you are innocent until proven guilty right ... at least thats what largely the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments say.
One of the points you are missing is that tax brackets change each year .. so whatever I wrote is going to change year over year. I'm myself not at 35% either, but once I'm at that point .. I really don't think I'll miss the 2k out of my pocket and I'll have piece of mind that those 2k might go to fund the school my kid goes to, the hospital my parents may be at or the road/bridge I'm driving over.
An increasing gap of wealth between the richest and the poorest is a social time bomb. The gap in the US has already reached levels that one once only found in Africa. I can recommend reading http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/23/population-egalitarian-cities-urban-growth
Taxes are an unfortunate evil.
Yes innocent until proven or admitted guilty as is the case with Ayers. His guilt is not at question only the extent of his relationship with Mr Obama and the degree to which they are similiar in beliefs and approach.
As to taxes, I do not understand why everyone believes tax cuts for Corporations will be going directly into the pockets of fat cats of industry. I mean after all most working adults in this country own some small bit of corporate america either through direct ownership of shares, through their 401k or their pension. In our current economic situation one of the biggest things slowing growth is a lack of capital in the corporate sector. Operating lines of credit are being slashed and cancelled, deposits on new orders are slowing, and cash flow is at a new low. These companies cannot fund hiring, development, or expansion. A tax cut for them would be a direct infusion of capital and would directly help the American consumer and the world for that matter by prompting corporate spending. On the other side of the coin is giving tax cuts to people who are going to spend the money as end consumers so the benefit would not have the chance to multiply by passing through the system from the corporate level down resulting in additional jobs, oppertunities and reduced inflation.
Obama has said many times publicly that he does not support or endorses what Mr Ayers has done in the past. He does not ask for advice nor has been given advice. Charlie Black has all done that to McCain....and while we're at it Sarah Palin and her husband actually were members of any organization that sought to have Alaska declare independence from the US, something that I think can be considered treason.
Do you really think that Microsoft or Exxon are going to miss a few hundred million? If people get more money, they are going to spend it on goods which will keep the economy going. I am not convinced that the current tax plan is working seeing the situation we got ourselves in. I really dont think the consumer is going to notice anything from a few extra billion to the oilcompanies, after all, when they earned record profits, the gas was at a record high so they sure didnt pass some of those profits on to the consumer. Instead of investing billions in researching oil alternatives, their goal is to keep us using oil as long as possible.
Ever wondered how much 700 billion dollars could have gotten us in reducing our reliance on the middle east and china?
Yes he denies supporting Ayers methods and beliefs but of course he would. He couldnt really stand up and say he thinks we should blow up buildings....He is a very smart guy afterall I just dont trust the man and dont believe him when he speaks. He is a little to slick for me. As to the corporate stuff you are focusing on a single industry....One that I agree should in no way recieve a tax cut they are price fixing and price gouging the american public into the poor house. So I would suggest that a corporate tax break be implemented and an additional tax be placed on the oil companies and better yet have their tax triggered and determined on a schedule based on national average gas prices. The more gas costs the more tax they pay. If national average price is over $3 they pay 20% above normal tax for that quarter. Our current tax structure has little to do with our current economic woes. It has more to do with silly regulatory changes that were made so institions would be encouraged to make loans to unqualified buyers cause we wanted to feel good about everyone buying a home. In my opinion anyways. And I will not even go into who made these changes because the current admin did not change them back so they are both culpable. As to the Palin thing that is interesting and obviously poor taste on her part. However treason is defined by the constitution as making war on the us or giving aid or comfort to our enemies. Being a secessionist is neither of those unless the take up weapons to secede
I guess we can maybe agree to disagree on the whole Ayers thing. When I hear McCain speak .. it scares me. BTW the regulations you spoke about were actually put in place by George W as he suggested making more and cheaper loans available to low income families. The problem was that all the failsafes that were built into the system to red flag problems were ignored as to say not to 'boo boo' progress and economic growth. You can read GW's entire speech at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html but then again .. isn't it always to blame things in hindsight ?
The tax rule for the oil companies is interesting, but I don't think it will work that way ... you'd think that the US has it bad with gas .. what do you think the Europeans think about their 10 dollars a gallon gas? They drive smaller and more fuel economic cars.