YES, THE WATCHMEN ARE DEFINITELY A HATE GROUP. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE OUR LAWMAKERS COME UP WITH A LAW TO STOP HATE CRIMES. ANYONE INVOLVED IN HATE CRIMES SHOULD SERVE TIME IN JAIL AND CHASED OUT OF THE STATE. WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE LIKE THIS HERE.

WE SHOULDN'T GIVE THEM ANY AIR TIME EITHER.

THANKYOU, JOYCE

it is simple and clear: moses had it all on one tablet: thou shalt not kill

Gay people need to just go away! They move into your neighborhhod, refurbish the old meth homes, raise property values, and then don't even have kids to drain the public funds! Now your wife starts asking why you can't dress as nice as they and why their lawn is picture perfect and ours looks like a trailer park!

Next thing you know, you have to watch out for repressed republican elected officials in the washroom! But I guess like Iran, there are no gays in Russia! Oh well, praise be! Jesus teaches "better to hate, than love", ya know!

NO!

All anti-gay groups are violent hate groups. All conservative Christians are violent hate churches. There has never been a hate crime committed by a gay rights group.

Just like Joyce said, we don't need Christians and anti-gay people in our country. I feel like they should have to leave. And just like Joyce said anti-gay and Christian people should not have a right of speech in America.

From what I saw on the news, I was absolutely shocked at how HATEFUL and antagonistic the protestors came across as compared to the group they were complaining about. How many hundreds of thousands of deaths in just this country alone can we thank the conscience-deficient gays for? How can they ever make up for the lives they have destroyed??????????????????????????? They can't ... but wouldn't anyway because they are too self-absorbed.

Based on your report, no. I don't know if here is more to the group than what you reported, but there is a difference between believing homosexual acts are wrong, and hating gays. From your report, it seems like this group is more of the former, and those protesting outside against any group who has ethical beliefs that do not conform to the majority.

Any group that has on their website, 'International Christian Movement for Human Rights. and then is responsible for the deat of a young man in Sacremento, can be concsidered a hate group and should be treated as such. They say they are a Christian group, but their method of operation is of fear and hate. Human rights advocates do not spew rhetoric of hateful, exclusive language. This group does. Hateful words and exclusivity do not create a healthy society for all its citizens.

No, I do not think that they are a "Hate Group"

The news story "reported" by Roberta Romero on KING Television and echoed by NWCN was ridiculously biased ! Talk about SPIN ! She obviously has her own agenda . BASH THE CHRISTIANS !

Why do all these Christian groups think they have the right to judge anyone? Go back home read your Bible, see if you can find something in there about casting judgement apon others. Don't just skip over the parts you don't want to fallow. If you don't agree with being gay. Don't be gay. Leave everyone else alone.

No! They're not a hate group! Funny when the "gay/lebians" have "their" agenda's, it is okay, but when "anyone" speaks out against the "gay/lesbians" they're labled a hate group. So, I guess the "gay/lebians" should be labled a "hate" group also? The Bible clearly states, "gays/lebians" are sinners, no if's and but's about it. If they want to be a sinner, fine, it is their choice. God let's you choose whatever you want to be.

I completly agree with John. It is funny that the "gay/lesbians" have a freedom of speech but when any Chritstians want to say something about the matter they shouldn't have the right and it's automatically considered a "hate group". So to answer your question, no I definitly don't think they are a hate group. Like John said if they want to sin that's their choice but people doing the right thing should have a say too. Bottom line, if the "gays/lesbians" have a freedom of speech then so should Christians!

John - What does this mean ? : " Don't just skip over the parts you don't want to fallow. "

In my last entry I meant to say I agree with Jack Moskovita not in any way John. They really need to change where they put their "Posted by" signs so it isn't so confusing.

They are DEFINITELY a hate group. They want everyone to believe the hate they preach. That is what happened in Germany in the 1930's and they became the NAZI'S. Now they are growing and growing in power in this country, they just call themselves christians. We had better watch out for these people before it is too late, as it was in Germany.
And remember it is these same religious fanatics which committed the 9/11 destruction. Different group but with the same teachings: HATE HATE HATE

Hal, in the Bible it says YOU are not to cast judgement(Matthew 7:1). Don't just skip over that part. I am not gay, but I do NOT have the right to JUDGE them. They will be judged in the end. They should not be judged by either you or I. YOU and ALL the other Christians do have the freedom of speech. But who are YOU to cast judgement upon others, YOU ARE NEITHER GOD NOR JESUS. Do you get it? Basically I'm saying live and let live. Love thy neighbor. Let God sort them out. And if your right you wont have to worry about bumping into them in Heaven. There are so many other things to worry about than what others do in thier own bedrooms. The watchmen are wasting thier time on gay people. Why don't they spend there time helping feed the homeless? Helping abused children. Do you see my point? Don't Waste your time hating. Spend your time helping. It will be better for everyone.

John - "DO YOU GET IT"? This is also about an extremely biased and ignorant reporter, Roberta Romero creating and airing a news report on KING TV and NWCN that headlined "Christians Declare War on Homosexuals". This is an example of lazy, sensationlist reporting. The report also stated : "Saturday's message from the Watchmen was about hatred" and implied that Christians caused the murder of a gay man in Sacramento. This is fostering hatred by PRESENTING NONSENSE AS FACT! I quote the previous blogger "there is a difference between believing homosexual acts are wrong, and hating gays" and the group "Watchmen on the Walls" is not saying that they HATE homosexuals .

Michael, Why is Roberta Romero a extremely biased and ignorant reporter? just because you don't agree? The only one here thats "fostering hatred by PRESENTING NONSENSE AS FACT" are the righteous Christians "Watchmen on the Walls".

life is too short for all this crap. its one thing for one person to get stupid and live that way and that is where my amazement comes in where so many are gullable enough to go along with it.

how bout jim jones, give him all posesions let him have sex with your wife move to guyana and drink some poison, "duh ok" sometimes is hard to tell the difference between the simpsons and the evening news.

being raised in a strong Mormon family, I have my personal relationship with God. I am also gay. My family accepts me, God doesnt seem to have an issue, I dont see why this group of people find it so difficult to deal with someone they dont even have the desire to know on a personal level.
The man interviewed on the news talked of sexual freedom and the destruction of the family unit. First off being gay is more than sexual. Just like being straight is more than the sexual event. That is the first thing we need to clear up. I am sure that sexual freedom and the 'free sex' movement is limited to gay folks only. I am certain that no straight folks have never participated in open sexual activity. Take the blinders off folks. Homosexuality is not about a sexual event, entirely. Suprisingly, if you take the time to know someone who is gay, you will also find love, compassion for another HUMAN.
This group is entitled to its beleifs, but in the beleifs, they need to do some personal searching and find out what the problem really is for themselves with homosexuality. If I am truely created in Gods image, and they hate me, fear me or despise me because I am gay, does this also give them the same issues with God? If God didnt want me to be gay, did he really want me to have those feelings of worthlessness, unhappiness, depression and thoughts of suicide while trying to fit into the category of straight? Somehow I think God would prefer me to be a happy person. Gay, straight, A sexual, bisexual ... whatever. I think I like the choice of living a happy life, than a repressed one.

Exactly! Remember, it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Having gay people in your community is uniquely American and must stop. Some think it's the estrogen in the public water from all those awful birth contol pills! Other countries have no gays. We need to be more like Iran and Russia. They are fine examples of good, Godly people because have no gays. Praise be!

Wow I never thought people could be so full of hate. Seriously it shouldn't matter if people are gay/straight/bi/lesbian. These "Watchmen on the Walls" need to let people be who they are and start worrying about real problems that are going on in this world.

They are NOT a hate group! If anything they are totally the opposite! People who follow God and do all they can to live by HIS WORD don't hate anyone,but the truth must be told. God's word clearly teaches that although he loves EVERYONE and desires a relationship with all of His creation, the act of same sex relationships is an "abomination". I would have to ask who hates who?? The gay community for the most part, hates Christians who make a stand for God, His word, and the truth. This conflict is one of many signs of the times. All WILL see and know the truth on judgement day,but then it will be too late!

Anyone who recognizes Scott Lively KNOWS that this IS A HATE GROUP. Lively has been obsessed with homosexuals for decades and was the sidekick of fellow homophobe Lon Mabon, the two of them leading the "Oreon Citizens Alliance" for years (until the organization fell apart amidst Mabon's criminal conviction arising from misuse of funds in ballot measure drives).

Just look at the videos shown at this conference! When you have idiots screaming to their audience that "the entire world is at war and that war is between Christians and homosexuals," how can you NOT call this a hate group?

Frankly, I always thought Scott Lively probably had insecurity about his heterosexuallity.

Anyway, to anyone who is over the age of 35 and remembers these characters, there is no doubt about their hate agenda.

^^^^^^^^
Your comment Frank: "Somehow I think God would prefer me to be a happy person. Gay, straight, A sexual, bisexual ... WHATEVER.(emphasis mine) I think I like the choice of living a happy life, than a repressed one."

Whatever? Think about what you said Frank! Words escape me :(

For just a moment take "religion" and "emotion" out of it. Parents, ask youselves this
question: Would you rather your child grow up to live a gay life or a straight life? (the childless need not reply, we are talkin FAMILY here). The christians don't hate the sinner, they hate the sin. No clear "thinking" person would wish a gay/lesbian lifesyle on their child, just as they wouldn't wish blindness or deafness on them. I belive what they are saying is a straight life is ideal and I have to agree with them. I see no evidence of hate on the part of the Watchmen. However, what I do see here is a liberaly biased media at work trying to create hate where there is none. Oh, and for all you "If the media is biased, it's to the right" crowd, you are either a liar or a retard.

BF

No, they are not a hate group. They are a group of people standing up for what they believe in, just as the gay/lesbian group stands up for their position. I myself do not believe in the lifestyle of gay/lesbian people, but I don't hate them. Why is it whenever someone takes a stand for what they believe in they are labeled haters?

They are most definitely a hate group. But more than that they are not a Christians group as they claim. A Christian group would not be their brother's keeper, nor would they judge what others do. Homosexuals in no way harm them. And, I am very sure homosexuals have heard (over and over) that they are sinning. So - why don't they leave others alone to their own lifestyles because they are ignoring one of their own claims - that everyone have a personal relationship with GOD.

-The Angles spoke with Lot in Sodom and said that the Homo Sexuals are filled with a Lying Spirit.
-After you think about it, the Angels statement makes sense.
-The Watchmen are only trying to slow the creeping acceptance of lying perversion into our Family Based Society.
-They are not a hate group and are in their constitional rights of freedom of speech and thought. Jeff

NO THEY ARE NOT A HATE GROUP AND IT IS THEIR RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH TO VOICE IT.PHYICALLY HARMING GAYS IS WRONG AND AGAINST THE LAW AS IT SHOULD BE. GOD GIVES GAYS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE THEIR LIFE STYLE. GOD DOESN'T TELL US TO FORCE PEOPLE TO THINK AS WE DO, BUT HE ALSO TELLS US TO STAND UP FOR WHAT HE AND WE BELIEVE IN.

I think this group is about as hateful as the NAACP or Gay and Lesbian Groups.
Why is this issue still such a 'hot topic'?
What happened to FREEDOM OF RELIGION?
I remember in the early 80's when some children were expelled from school because in the afternoons and weekends they would preach on the streets of their neighborhood about how God didn't design man for man and woman for woman. What ever happened to them?

John did you see me say one judgmental thing? No! All I said was that if "gay/lesbians" have a freedom of speech than Christians should to without it being called a hate group! It's amazing if you consider what I say "judgemental" when it clearly isn't, what else you might be considering "judgemenatal" when it's not.

PEOPLE NEED TO LOOK UP THE MEANING OF JUDGEMENT BEFORE THROWING IT AROUND. ONE CANNOT CONDEMN ANOTHER TO HELL ONLY GOD AND THE PERSON'S CHOICE CAN DO THAT. BUT WE ARE TOLD TO JUDGE IN AS FAR AS DECIDING WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. GOD' WORD TELL US THE GAY LIFE STYLE IS WRONG AND HE WILL JUDGE THEM ONE DAY. WE CAN DECIDE(JUDGE) THE LIFE STYLE AS WRONG AND AGREE WITH OUR CREATOR.

Yes. Even gays can have a personal relationship with god. God doesn't hate anyone.

I don't believe they are a hate group. Sounds to me like somebody took their message too far when he/she committed murder; however. It's unfair the whole group gets labeled for someone's actions.

Although, Tim, he does hate their sin.

NO, they are not a hate group.

No, Christians are not people of hate. God does teach us that there is a *right* and a *wrong* way to live. Our society chooses to ignore the differnce. Christians are trying to reflect the difference, but in order to do that, we must stand up for what is right and shine a *light* on the wrong.

I completley agree with you deanna. I think that's what all the Christians here are trying to say.

They are definitely NOT a hate group. They have a moral stand that is contrary to gay groups but is not contrary to God. There need to be standards in our world that are not changeable to the whims of each new group. A gay lifestyle is contrary to natural law and is not befeficial to people in general. I love gay people but that does not mean I cannot disagree with his/her lifestyle. I also recognize gays have an agenda that would encourage all people to be like them.

I suggest you folks research the history of these people (The Watchmen) before you claim they are not a hate group.

If it wasn't so dangerous, it would simply be extremely comical to consider that these people actually believe that "the entire world is at war, and that war is between the Christians and the homosexuals!"

You fundamentalist fascist sheep literally amaze me, and are truly an embarassment to our entire nation. I fully defend your right to believe the way you do, and likewise I will fully exercise my rights to expose you for what you are: a bunch of "cast the first stone" hgypocrites who hate people because you are obsessed with what they do with their own body parts in private!

I mean, really, what kind of ignoramus could seriously look at what is going on in the world today, and conclude (much less proclaim)that the basis for the wars we witness, is a struggle "between Christians and homosexuals?"

It's pretty ironic that of the world's three major religions, the one based (in part) on the Old Testament containing Leviticus, i.e. Judaism, is the most tolerant and least hateful of gays, whereas you hypocritical "Christians" supporting The Watchmen act in complete derogation of Christ's example!

Who is the real pervert: (1) the person who places his/her body part on/into the body part of another of the same sex; (2) the person who is obsessed with what others are doing with their body parts in private? This is a no-brainer! It is the person obsessed with the private sexual practices of consenting adults, who is sick, sick, sick.

Hitler railed against homosexuals in exactly the same manner as these Watchmen! Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Communists, trade unionists ... all were "vermin." It all began as as an "educational" campaign and ultimately turned into "the final solution." And it was all done by people who celebrated Christmas and claimed to love God.

You really couldn't blame gays if they were to wait outside this conference with a bunch of baseball bats and beat the crap out of these Fascists. Of course, that won't happen. The ostracized victims of this hate group are law-abiding people from all walks of life who have no violent, hateful agenda.

Scott Lively has been a gay-hating Fascist for decades. His organization collapsed in Oregon and now he is trying to make a comeback with his little gathering in Washington.

You ignorant morons who adhere to Lively's agenda are no better than the Islamo-Fascists who are trying to overthrow democracies around the world and install theocratic dictatorships everywhere. I suppose that is all part of the "war between Christians and homosexuals?"

I fear for my country's future when I consider the ignorance of so many.

I'm Gay and A Christian. Threethings. First I would like to say that the GAY agenda is just this equal rights! second. If "Christian groups" want to save families why are they not taking on the issue of DIVORCE. It seems tha divorce rips apart more families then someone being gay. And last Christians follow Christ who is all about love, forgivness and caring. These Wallies should try it sometime. It makes my live better and would make theres better also.

no they are not.being gay is nothing more than a lifestyle.I dont go chruch iam so sick of people trying to feel like they are specical.If we dont like something about them they go crying on T.V. COME ON!GET OVER IT!

NO, they are not a HATE GROUP - They are a LOVE GROUP!!! They defend what GOD intended, Man + Woman + children = FAMILY. Maybe they (gay & lesbians) should pick up the BIBLE and actually read it. It clearly states sexual deviation is a crime, and is completely unacceptable!

I am lazy and never respond to these kind of things, but this did it. The US is based on freedom, we can not let special interest groups change that fact. We do not all agree. We have the right to speak our hearts and minds. Thats not hate! We need to vigorously protect this basic freedom.
Thank for your time Sherri

Yes, they are a hate group and use religion as an excuse. No one is denying them the right to speak out against the gay lifestyle. We need to speak out against their constant judgements against any lifestyle that isn't theirs. People like this breed hate amongst their own and the violence and prejudice that hurts so many people. Shame on them. Keep speaking out, it is the quiet hate we need to look out for. I am not gay. I support freedom of choice and I will decide my own values. Thank you, Marlene

No they are not a hate group well i have alot of freinds that are lesbiands im not agianst that at all but im not one of them i just dont have a probloom with them so thanx for your time Katie

Having never heard of this particular organization before, I "googled" Watchmen-on-the-Walls to find out more information. The first 3 hits were about another Christian group of the same name founded by Marc Brisebois of Canada. I was confused. Nowhere was there hate of any kind preached on those pages.
Then a different organization, same name, showed up in the listings. Unfortunatly it painted a different picture. Associated with this group are those of infamous notariaty; Alexey Ledyave,Scott Lively( author of The Pink Swatiska which blames the Holocost and WW2 on homosexuals), Ken Hutcherson of the New Generation Church and other far-right Fundementalists which have a large following from Eastern Europen emirgres in the US. These group has declared war against homosexuals and (what he calls) homosexualists ( those who accept homosexuals as equal). They HATE everyone who does not agree to their agenda. They are terrorists perpatrating violence against the very structure our great country was based on. It's not "Liberty and justice for SOME." It's for ALL! All Americans no matter what their sexual orientation. When will people wake up and realize that it's not something to be chosen. You don't choose to be gay or straight. It's genetics. Who would choose to be treated like a 2nd class citizen? Who would choose to be equated to a pedaphile? Who would want to be a victim of such close minded thinking as these so-called Watchmen?
I have known wonderful, brilliant people who have died at the hands of the same kind of people. I have seen talented people repressed and victimized. You cannot choose being Gay anymore than you can choose the color of your skin or the shape of your nose. God made everyone different for a reason. Are you God? Can you judge why he made people this way? God said to love your neighbor. He also said to forgive, so I will pray for them.

Funny how just because people don't agree with the gays issue, we are labled as a hate group. I "HATE" being labled. I stand for family values. The gays have a right to dress up like fools and march up and down our streets chanting for extra rights then turn on us normal people for saying something against them. TUFF!!! Stick your gay stuff back in the closet where it belongs.

Why is dissagreement always labeled as hate? I saw the sign that said Washington is a hate free zone....uh what about all the hate toward our President? To me the protesters in this news story looked like the hateful ones.

Praise the Watchman! The sooner they take over our government, the sooner I can pee at Boise in peace!

YES they are a hate group. They make all Christians look bad.
Sarah

I find it interesting that Jesus said not one word against homosexuality. That seemed to be Paul's issue. Jesus did minister however to the fringes of society...ie. the Samaritan woman at the well who was considered an outcast by conservative Jews, the Roman commander whose servant was sick & dying, the Gentile woman who came to him for healing & when he told her he was sent to the house of Israel she responded that even dogs could eat from the crumbs from their master's table. He commended her for her faith & healed her. He had a lot to say against the conservative religeous establish however & blasted their position on the Law at the expense of their neighbour. You see, love outweighs all else. There are many Christian gay & lesbian children that belong in the "Jesus Camp". People like the Watchmen on the Wall do Jesus a great disservice. If he accepts them who are they to reject this minority.

The group "Watchman on the Walls" became a hate group when they declared war on the gays/lesbians. Christ taught that to be Christlike, you need to love, care, & to tolerate all those that know not. Intollerance leads to genocide - just ask the jews. I'm heteralsexual, but I stand for gay rights. Also, the idea that there are no gays in other countries. That's ludricous. The Europeans laugh at the colonials because they have already learned from those mistakes.

One thing everyone has to know is just because the Watchmen on the Walls are declaring war between "gays/lesbians" doesn't mean all Christians are like that. True Christians know the difference between right and wrong and know that God doesn't want "gay/lesbians" and it's wrong. True Christians also know to love one another and to treat others as you would want to be treated. That said, decide weather the Watchmen on the Walls are true Christians and if you should be calling all Christians "hate groups".

If a hate group is defined as a group that encourages violent crimes, promotes murder, and praises members who torture and murder innocents, then yes, Watchmen on the Walls is a hate group. They are no more a "Christian group" than were the Nazis or the Fascists. They are Anti-Christs, twisting Scripture to further the Devil's work.

Yes, they are a hate group. However, I do believe that the most people are intelligent enough to recognize that the “Watchmen” and others like them do have hate in their hearts and that their point of view is scud by their hatred. Moreover, I hope that our lawmakers are intelligent enough as to never enact laws such as the arcane German statute "Paragraph 175.” A statute that was enacted in 1871, and was active and aggressively used during the Nazi regime of the 1930s and 1940s and remained a statute until the 1960s. Those persons that truly have love in their heart do not have to hate. Gays and lesbians have never asked for “special rights,” they have only asked for fair and equal rights, and protections under the law that all heterosexuals enjoy and take for granted.

Joyce sounds really paranoid.

Of course that group is not a hate group. Not even close.

People like Joyce are the ones who scare me.

I would like to know what all the Watchmen on the Walls have done to gays and lesbians to get them so ticked off. Please explain.

Jeez Louise! You guys ought to listen to yourselves. How far down in your itty bitty little pockets did you have to dig to pull out the comparison of Christians to Nazis? Mankind is the only fool on this planet to act gay, unless you want to compare yourselves to a whale or a weird little monky. We're supposed to be beyond that. We have tried to evolve. I have been around a lot of different people in my life and am not blind, and I don't believe for a minute that so many idiotic people are genetically made up to be gay. Mankind is not built to be that. But the amount of people that are gay is growing because of the teachings of it in our society that says it's okay to be that way. My opinion.... It is NOT okay. It is not human. It just is not right. I, like those who are demonstrating against the gays, want it stopped, too. It is destroying the very fabric of our society. And if the normal, regular, everyday people, (Or Hate Groups as you call us), don't make a stand pretty soon, our world will fall into a derelict state that cannot be easily repaired. I know you will "HATE" my words, but I speak the REAL truth here. Whether you belive me or not. If you don't.... TUFF! I am entitled to my opinion too.

Now that everyone is done screaming and yelling, let us consider what if the Bible is right that "sexual sinners, adulterers (and others, yes like liars, murderers, etc)...shall have their place in the lake of fire.." as it says in Revelation?

Wouldn't it just be better to give up those activities that might end in such a way instead of risking the possibility at death?

Is the gay sex really that good? With all the disease, promiscuity, social alienation (let's face it, Christians may judge that behavior but your non Christian "friends" are the ones making up all those crewd jokes about gay behavior behind one's back), and the basic fact that men obviously were made for women?

Is it worth it in the end?

Yes they are a hate group and remind me of the Nazi's of WWII and the Aryan Nations, White Supremist of more recent events. They need to keep their religious beliefs to themselves. They are intolerant of other beliefs. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state and their religious beliefs intrude on my and other's rights to believe what they want to believe. They need to keep their religion out of other people's lives.

RE: Watchmen on the walls.

If possible, I would like to remain anonymous. I don’t want the harassment that is sure to come with this issue.

* First of all, I want to know why the gay community never brings up the fact that God himself said that Marriage is honorable among all. He doesn’t say all whites, or all straights, or all of any one special interest group, he just said that it’s for anyone who wants it. He said it in: Hebrews, 14:3 … Think about it, what could it possibly hurt?

* Second of all, why don’t the gay people bring up the fact that Good King James, of King James Bible fame, was gay himself?! You can use: Will and Arial Durant, authors of: The Age of Reason begins, as a bibliography source for that. They will tell the names of others who will corroborate. They also mention the fact that Good King James put to death a number of gay people for being gay, just to keep the xtians happy.

* Maybe I should just leave it at that, but this issue is pretty hot right now and the gay community is kind of in danger from the xtian community, the xtians did burn Copernicus at the stake for telling them that the earth revolves around the sun, they jailed Galileo for saying it and they put to death Giordano Bruno for saying it and for saying that anybody who believes the bible is reality, has got to get out more often. I just don’t think that the xtains know how brutal they and their religion is...

I consider the xtian groups that are fighting the gay community as hate groups because xtianity really is a brutal religion, in spite of the lip service that they give to forgiveness. (I mean, why can’t they forgive the gays and leave them alone? Since god himself said that marriage is honorable among all!
If the gays marry, then they won’t be promiscuous, ( Another no no, in the bible.) and then they won’t spread whatever dreaded diseases that the xtains whip up “the fear” about, in order to push the gay community around.
I think that the reason the xtian mullahs are stirring up the masses against the gay community, is because the gays are a small minority that are easy to scapegoat. That is why the xtians are pushing them around now. Why can’t the xtians just work on spirituality and positive things, rather than scapegoating some minority?
Look at the bright side Mr. mullah, there is a lot more money out there for you if you charge the gays money, for getting married. That’s what xtianity is ultimately about, isn’t it? Money!

I believe that the xtians fighting the gay community are a hate group because:

1) The bible said that the gay people were nuked, I mean burned to death, in Sodom and Gomorrah. So the straight people actually followed suit and burned gay people at the stake in Europe and England. They copied god, tried to be like him. They tried to be godlike, by killing gay people. They also killed each other during the inquisitions. They rationalized it, by saying that god wanted this killing to happen.

Someone once wrote that this was the reason that gay people were called faggots, because a faggot was a burning stick of wood in the fires that were built to kill them, and then I've also read rebuttals, saying that this was not the reason that gay people were called Faggots, but to me this doesn't matter, because the fact remains that xtians burned gay people at the stake. Burned them to death. This is all so ironical, because according to some historians, Will and Aerial Durant in the Age of Reason Begins, for example, say that King James, the guy who inspired the xtians to write the King James Bible, was gay, and that he had gay people in his jails killed for being gay, to keep the xtians happy. To keep them off his back.
All of this in spite of the fact that god himself said: Marriage is honorable among all.

2.) The reason that I think xtianity is brutal, fascist and hateful, is because the bible said that God burned gay people alive in Sodom and Gomorrah, but also, that he killed women and children in the Passover story, God killed children in Job too! Oh that's right, he told the devil that it was OK to do it. But what's the difference between that, and shooting them with a shotgun. (?)
Seems that Satan just works for god. But then the xtians say that god doesn’t need Satan, and he doesn’t work for god. But that’s nonsense, because he certainly doesn’t work for the Buddhists, they don’t even kill worms! Buddhism is less violent, and even though Buddhism isn’t perfect, it certainly looks like the xtians could learn a thing or two about non violence from the Buddhists. I don’t think that they have a god who’s killed a ton of babies!

So I’m saying that god killed children in Job, Joshua, Passover, Sodom and Gomorrah. People copy god. Hitler scape goated and killed the Jewish people, rationalizing it by saying that they were responsible for the death of Jesus. God was not setting a good example. In Passover for instance, he should have taught the Hebrews to negotiate a peaceful settlement rather than killing the babies of the pharaoh. Those babies had nothing to do with the politics of that pharaoh, and I wonder if god didn’t hear Arnold Schwarzenegger when he said: Don’t politicize the children!
The American Indians were brutalized by us during the building of our country, and it was rationalized by people who believed that the Indians were heathens and thus possessed by the devil. So they aren’t really human and we can thus brutalize them and we did just that, just as surely as Hitler brutalized the Jews. It was rationalized using god and xtianity. Where will it all stop. (?) I think that xtians think the gays are second class citizens and that it’s ok to push them around. I think that all needs to stop.

In the bible, God killed babies in Job, Joshua, Sodom, Gomorrah, Passover and one other story, what was it? So OK, god told Joshua to kill everyone in the villages that he conquered, with no one allowed to survive. Who has done that kind of thing recently? Oh that's right, Hitler and the other fascists like him. Do you see the connection? Hitler killed the Jews to garner power by scapegoating them.
Xtians are now scapegoating the gays to rally one another against a small minority, (different from themselves and thus easy to whip up hate for, among the followers of that religion,) in order to give power to the mullahs who are really hurting for membership in their churches. The mullahs of that bloody religion, are just being Demigods.

So to sum up what I have said: The bible shows many cases where God brutalized babies and gay people in Sodom, gamorrah, Job, Joshua and Passover. History shows that the xtians followed suit, and killed people in the inquisition, the thirty years war, the native american wars, World war two and even now in the brutality shown between the islamists and the xtians in Asia and the middle east. The xtians are rationalizing their negative campaign against he gay community using the bible, the bible is bullmalarky, so it's time that they give up the fight and concentrate on improving themselves and not pushing the gay community around.

didn't jesus say that the first person without sin should throw the stone... (?)

Ah Giordano,

I wish that you had lived while I was still alive, rather than coming to this world five years after I had been burned at the stake for telling the christians that the earth revolved around the sun.

A small interjection : the term 'Hate the sin not the sinner' is not from the bible contrary to popular belief apparently around here. it was written by Ghandi.
i guess what bothers me most about this whole religious issue with gays is that a lot of Baptists in particular like to pick and choose lines of of the bible they want to obey. how many godly christians have eaten shrimp lately?
next to what they say are 'proof God disapproves of gays are lines like this :
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

does that shrimp cocktail at the church picnic seem good now? how about after the paster explains about how 'laying with a man as they would a woman' is talking about gays (it isnt) he runs down a few more lines to hit this:

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

do you think he will skip out on a nice shiimp pate or will he continue to pick and choose what lines to obey?

i dont see anywhere that jesus said anything about homosexuality. there isnt even a word for it in the bible from the translations. in order to be righteous i suppose someone else has to be 'wrong'.

one thing is for sure. i can't wait for the rapture, because i405 will be faster commute for me.

reference: bettybowers.com and godhateshrimp.com

Christians are called to above all things be like Christ. If one reads the bible Christ was hardly a hateful person. In fact in many instances he befriends those most people frowned on such as prostitutes for example. They were thought of by many people as sinners just as homosexuals are nowadays. It goes deeper than that though. The issue of who is sinning and who is not and whose sin is greater is irrelevant. Christ calls those who follow him not to condemn but rather to love and even befriend those with whom we disagree. An appeal to common sense. What percentage of the time will a person change their behavior just because you are angry with them? Chances are the average person will dig their heels in because they could care less whether or not you are angry with them. A churches main purpose is to educate people and bring them to Christ. The people of Christ need to realize that though they may disagree with a homosexual's lifestyle, they need to accept them with open arms and words of love. They need to live as examples of Christ and what he stands for. These Watchmen on the Walls are teaching things that are 180 degrees different than what Christ would want. Not all sinners will go to hell and not all Christians will go to heaven. It is in the middle, where Christians and sinners meet, become one and live as Christ did that people will find God.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the word "hate" is a propaganda term repeatedly used by homosexual activists to intimidate and create an alarmist picture of anyone who exercises their free speech rights to disagree with the homosexual agenda. Though we are not members of the Watchmen, we attended their Friday night and Sunday night meetings and what we found was a group of Christians who simply expressed biblically related concerns with the homosexual agenda being pushed upon our nation. The Watchmen have every right to assemble and engage in free speech about these issues, and there was absolutely no indication of hatred for gays in anything they had to say.

Please, "freedom of speech" is used to support every other lobby group. But when a group of Christians- doesn't mean all have the same belief, get together to discuss concerns, they are burned at the stake... "freedom of speech" only seems to apply to "certain" groups that are anti-Christian. Fair is fair, "free speech" for all, not some.

Hal, I'm sorry if I said you were judgemental. I meant to say that groups that decide to declare war against another group are judgemental. Also, I was born and raised Christian. I just don't believe it's right to declare war against gay men and women. I myself would never do those acts, But who am I to declare war against someone that doesn't believe the way I do? If I did that my life would be full of hate. I for one don't believe that all Christians are like the "Watchmen". I'm 100% behind your last post. Once again please accept my apology for saying you were judgemental when I was talking about The "whatchmen" as a group. I got a little caught up in the moment.

I do except your apology John. I am now confused though of what you think. Your saying this now but said different things before. So I am curious. What exactly do you believe?

I believe that these so called "Christians" should go back and read their Bibles. The freedoms that these evil "people" have are freedoms that gay people would love to have. Anyone that hates like these "Watchman"? is fooling themselves when they call themselves a Christian.The fact that these people pay no taxes infuriates me. If WE have to pay taxes to support these kind of "Faith based" groups then I believe all faith based groups need to be taxed. It takes years to clean up after their hate. When will these "Right Wingnut Christians" stop their hate and their constant need to have some kind of enemy to go after? Personally I think that God is disgusted with them ALL.

Watchmen on the walls is not a hate group. They just tell it like it is

Any "Christian" who promotes hate is not a true christian. People are entitled to their opinion and should be allowed to express that opinion without persecution. To preach about hatred in a church though is ungodly. We are not, according to the bible, supposed to judge others but turn the other cheek when we are in disagreement. If everyone just respected each other no matter who they are or what they believe in there would be peace in the world.

Watchman, Fundamentalist Christian, Good German; there is no difference. This is the same garbage that Hitler used against the Jews with the same people. The "christians" always need someone to hate and are willing to join groups like these to spread their evil. If it had not been for the christians of Hitlers day and their willingness to turn over their own family and neighbors maybe this atrocity would not have happened. christians always need others to follow blindly their evil ways because then they can justify their horrible behavior. Go read your Bible. How many of you have been divorced? Ever lied? Deceived anyone? Spread slander? Sought revenge or born a grudge? What is wrong with you people! You christian make me sick! You have become the devil and you are to stupid to realize that. I hope the rapture comes soon and we will be free of you and your evil minds.

Now hold up there just a minute Lee. You have it totally messed up. Just because the Watchmen on the Walls are doing some wrong things doesn't mean that all Christians are like that. True Christians do not, as you put it, have "evil minds". There are people who claim to be Christians who aren't. Also being Christian doesn't mean you are perfect! Of course Christians have lied, and decieved. No one is perfect. I'm sure you have done sin too in your life time! So who are you to call Christians "the devil"? Everyone has lied in thier lifetime. God weeps when we do sin (such as being gay. But the best part is that God forgives us when we do wrong! Next time think twice before you type.

so why is it then most of the big news about religion is bad news? pediofile preists, wars killing etc?

I'm somewhat confused with the term "Gay Agenda". I'm not so sure that this minority has an "agenda" other than to be given the same equal rights as any other American which is guaranteed to them under the Bill of Rights. Frankly the Watchman and other coservative Christian groups are pushing their own bias against gays & lesbians and assuming a role that I believe belongs only to God himself. No one has the biblical right to read anyone into or out of the Kingdom. What goes on in the bedroom of any couple, gay or straight, is none of my business BUT my obligation is to love that couple or individual because they were created in the image of my Creator however distasteful I may find their actions to be. Who knows??....maybe homosexuality is not a "choice" issue after all but is a part of his or her biological makeup. Their sexuality is only a small part of who they are as a total person. Let's stop judging our fellow man or woman because that is simply not our job. Our responsibility as Christians is to "love our neighbor as we love ourselves". Simple enough??

Rick North, you are very good. I liked what you wrote.
Giordano Bruno

By the way:
The xtinas made it so miserable for people, for each other, in the 1600's, that they had to get into little boats and cross the ocean that was trying to drown them, and live with Native americans (that got pissed at them and) that were trying to kill them, because it was a better deal than living with each other in Europe and England.
. Giordano Bruno

Hey Cyrix:
I believe that the term: Father, Son and holy Ghost means that the god and jesus are somehow one, in the holy spirit. They can read each other's minds and know what the other knows. But then other parts of the bible imply that Jesus is just god, in human clothing. He's the human manifestation of god. I don't care which is which, but they both imply that Jesus was a party to each of the genocides that god committed in Job, Joshua, Soddom, Gamorah, PAssover and whomever else he shitted on. Jesus is an accessory to each of those murders. Seems like the xtians try to separate the two dieties becaause of that, but really, the writers of thise stories didn't really know that people would eventually see through the bullpucky.
If Jesus is god, in human clothing, then that means he didn't even die for your sins, he just faked death, lost his earthly body and went on with his life. So that means then, that he didn't even give up as much as Mathew Shepherd, who died for the xtian's sins, in their bigoted stand against the gay community.
. Burn me at the stake for that you schmucks.
. Giordano Bruno

I was in iraq for one year. I am publishing some short stories soon of my experiences. Here is a a sample of my first short story. enjoy and let me know what you think. you can email comments to dsoldierus99@yahoo.com

Concussion
A short story by Ricky Mirabal
Based on true events

It had already been a long day. Twelve hours of Combat Patrols, raiding homes of suspected terrorists and handing out candy to the Iraqi children. You know, winning the hearts and minds of the local nationals. Yeah right.

I was only twenty four years old, but I felt fifty four. Running from ally to ally with about fifty pounds of Army equipment plus my M-16 A-2 rifle with ammo, it sure wears a Soldier out pretty quick. I was an Army sergeant with four and a half years of dedicated service to my country and military.

Prior to deploying to Iraq, our unit trained very hard in various locations throughout Germany. However, nothing could have prepared me for the experiences I would soon endure while “in country”.

In a convoy of four vehicles, three Abrams tanks and my humvee, we could hear a gun-battle going on in the area. But that was no longer our concern. For, we had already completed our twelve hour rotation for the day. It was now some other Soldiers’ problem. My driver looked at me and said “as long as they’re not shooting at this vehicle, Sergeant, I don’t care”. I agreed. We just wanted to get some sleep.

As we reached the Forward Operating Base, we called in our arrival to headquarters. The Abrams tank in front of me pulled into the brown dust covered road. It had kicked up so much dirt and sand that the visibility dropped to nearly zero percent within a second.

I put my radio handset down and prepared to drive through the gates.

BOOM!!

“Red-One-Alpha, this is Dawg-Seven, SITREP OVER”. The platoon sergeant wanted the Situation Report and he wanted it immediately.

The entire vehicle went dark, windows fell, and dust engulfed the inside of the humvee. “Red-One-Alpha, this is Dawg-Seven….What the hell is your status, over?”

The concussion from the blast stunned every soldier in our vehicle. I could hear the platoon sergeant calling me on the radio but, for a minute, I could not remember anything….not even my name.

As the platoon sergeant called once more, I fell out of my daze and became a sergeant again. “Dawg-Seven, Red-One-Alpha. My vehicle hit a landmine. Vehicle disabled. Stand-by for possible casualty report”. “Roger” Dawg-Seven replied.

I looked towards the driver seat to check on Specialist Jay but could barely see him through the dust that was starting to settle. I asked if he was ok and he replied, “I’m good, sergeant.” Then I asked for the other soldiers to give me their status.

“Specialist Howard up, Specialist Low up……” Then, dead silence. I was waiting for my Grenadier to give me his status. Nothing. “Private Diego, you ok?” I looked directly behind me to check on him. I had expected the worst.

I saw before me, a young Soldier with his eyes closed and helmet tilted as far back as it could go while still secured on his head. I then shook Diego frantically and shouted his name once more.

“Sergeant, what happened?” He lifted his head up and looked at me. “We hit a landmine but we are all ok.”

This process only took thirty seconds or so but, it felt like an eternity.

“Dawg-Seven this is Red-One-Alpha….zero casualties in my vehicle, over” “Roger. Get your Soldiers out of the vehicle and we will provide security for your personnel, over” “Roger that”, I replied.

I directed my Soldiers to get out of the vehicle and run to where the Medic was waiting. In the midst of all the chaos, the lines got crossed during radio transmission and the rest of the element thought that I had reported there to be casualties in my humvee.

Before my men could get out of the vehicle, there were Soldiers and a medic rushing toward us with litters to carry some of us away. “What the hell is going on?” I yelled. “All my guys are ambulatory.” The poor medic looked confused but relieved. God knows that he has had enough training during the past eleven months.

My Soldiers ran and took cover by a wall where other guys were providing security. When I got out of the vehicle, I could not believe my eyes. Our humvee had been lifted into the air and dropped, almost hitting the back of the Abrams tank that had been traveling directly in front of us. The force of the blast had bent the rims as easily as a child could fold a pancake.

As the confusion dwindled, I saw a military tow vehicle ready to take the disfigured humvee to the yard. I gave my Soldiers a signal to “rally-up” and follow me. As we walked onto our base, some Soldier’s stared at us as though we were walking dead. I told my men to just keep walking until we get to the medic station.

We entered the dim-lit room where the Army medic was waiting. The lights flickered and tables were covered with a fresh blanket of sand. I told my Soldiers to let the Doc check them out. So that’s what they did. The day was finally over…..for us anyway. Well, tomorrow will be another day, another mission, and another close call.

Now that I am home and safe, I count my lucky stars and my fingers and toes to remind myself that I am alive and that although my scars aren’t visible on the outside, the ones on the inside are still fresh and harder to heal.

I am still young. Only twenty-eight years of age. However, if you walked into my bathroom and opened my medicine cabinet, you would think my grandparents lived with me.

From Post Traumatic Stress symptoms such as anxiety, lack of sleep, restlessness, and the nightmares. To hearing loss and frequent ringing in my ears, I found that the only treatment that truly works is not what the V.A. doctors prescribe. Instead, for me it is talking about my experiences and support I receive from family and friends that in the end, has proven to be the most effective treatment in my healing process.

I wish the best to all military and civilian personnel serving in Iraq. For I have felt their pain and have made the same phone calls home, reassuring family that we are safe and will be home soon.

Ricky Mirabal
Good piece of writing Ricky. I hope the best for you in your endeavors.
. Giordano Bruno

. Looks like this blog has pretty much run it's course, it's starting to stray...

. From my point of view, it looks like we still have a lot of superstitious people out there who believe the bible has some kind of monopoly on reality. It doesn't. Superstition, intimidation and ignorance are the main precepts of this religion. We have come a long way since the biblical times, our doctors have learned to cure a large number of diseases, many of which were cured using what we have learned about evolution, but then we have xtians trying to tell us that evolution doesn't exist.
. We have political leaders who have taught us that genocide is wrong under all circumstances, but we still have idiots, even some of you people writing in here, who believe in this dog, I mean god, who kills babies and tells his followers to kill everyone that they conquer.
. We have feed the slaves and we have learned that all people are equal, but we still have this bloody religion telling us that women should never lead men, and that they shouldn't even teach male childeren. (That's in Isiah) And you morons still believe in this bullshit. I mean bullsheet.
. We have this bloody god abusing childeren in this bible, and then your mullahs start sexually molesting children, taking advantage of the rapist culture that this religion fosters, and people are starting to leave the church, but there are still a bunch of you out there who are unable to think for yourselves and hold on to this bloody religion.
. Let me tell you, Xtianity is rapist because the you xtians wave a devil at us like a gun, to force what you think is righteousness on us, just exactly like the rapist who uses a gun to force a woman to have what he thinks is pleasure, with her.
. The analogy of the shepherd tending his flock is really good, because a shepherd kills and eats those sheep. The mullahs who started that analogy must have made a Freudian slip on that one. They knew in the backs of their minds, that they were pulling one over on the masses, but they didn't think it through far enough to realize that some people would see that for what it is.
. What I'm saying is that your religion isn't the final word, we need to embrace education, science, tolerance, compassion, non judgemental observation and tolerance in this world, so that we can face the challenges that are coming soon in the years ahead. We're all being forced together more and more, and the world is gonna get a lot tougher to live in if the scientists are right.
. Burn me at the stake for this please:
. Giordano Bruno

. Giordano Bruno

OOOPS!
Sorry Cyrix, I mistook you for Justin, the guy below your thing on prawns.

. Giordano Bruno

Orville & Helen
The term hate speech may be used against people like you, and you deserve it, but your kind certainly coined the term blasphemy, to intimidate anyone who questioned the religion you purport to follow, because the mullahs knew that it would not stand up to questioning.

Burn me at the stake you phoneys.
. Giordano Bruno

God it feels good to rant!
This is so cathartic I want to just puke!

I can't believe all you people! Your conception of Christianity is totally and completley off! To answer your question, erv, the reason the only news you hear about Christians is bad is because they don't want to tell about all the good things that Christians do. They want it to sound all bad and like Christians are horrible because that sounds "interesting".

Giordano Bruno you are sooo off! Jesus did die for our sins! He suffered real pain because he loves us so much. He weeps when he hears you say such horrible things.

Whoever said that Christians don't believe in evolution, OF COURSE WE DON'T! God created us! There have been so many ways, even that non-Christian scientists have to admit, evolution has been proven WRONG!

Giordano Bruno, the Holy Bible ISN'T a bunch of superstitions! It is about factual things that really happened. It talks about Gods love for everyone and how he forgives you when you are wrong.

I can't even believe that you would consider Christianity to being a rapist! That just blows me away! I have know idea what so called "Christians" you've been talking to but there is no way you could ever think those two things can ever be the same!

Now I could go on and on and on at how messed up all you people are but why waste my finger muscles on that? I hope you all learn something from what I've said. May God bless you all.

You Christian haters are sooooo.... pathetic! You will not be happy until you see the world fall to ruin. That is sad. This arguement between the Watchmen and the gays really has nothing to do with Christianity. Grow up!!! Just because someone dissagrees with you doesn't mean they are a Christian. I'm not a church going Christian and I think the gays should fall off the face of this good earth. They have no place among humanity. What they do is against the laws of nature. And the fact that the religious group called the Watcmen finally has the balls to stand up to them, they are labled a hate group. WHY??? The gays and their supporters are the hate group. The go nuts over their issues and are willing to run over anybody that gets in their way, and then whine and cry like a bunch of spoiled, snot-nosed little brats if they don't get their way. What a bunch of losers. And if you want to get in to a typing war, let's go!

By the way. If there is hate, I hate the way you people act and destroy the foundations of my Constitution and Bill of Rights. And believe you me, the REAL people of this world will stand up for this one day. I am a veteran of the United States Armed Forces and swore an oath to uphold that constitution. And there are a lot of us that made that oath.

I'm totaly behind you on this one Daler!

Hey Hal:
Did you not read what I wrote about Jesus dying for your sins? I said: If jesus is actually an earthly manifestation of god, and if god is indestructable, like the bible says, then he wouldn't die on that cross. He just lost his earthly body, which is compared to dirty rags in the bible anyway.(Doesn't say much for human kind, being compared to dirty rags. That's the climate of abuse that mullahs used to molest childeren.)
. The whole death on the cross was staged as a theater, to push a guilt trip on us to keep us paying our ten percent. If he greives for us for saying this, then he will also greive for you xtians trying to push the gay people around.
. Your religion is very bloody, just look at Mel Gibson's passion of the Christ if you don't believe me. Your religion is so bloody you don't even know it when you or your so caled god are being brutal.
. Here's another way of looking at it: Islamists hate america and Isreal, they don't need to, but the mullahs know that this hatred unites their people, so they whip it up, to gain power from it. If an extremist actually kills an isreali or an american, the mullah just shrugs it off as god's will, and gives lip service to peace, saying: We shouldn't kill, but it happens.
So now the same thing is going on with gay people: The mullah says: God is against gay people, (Never mind that he created them that way.) we don't approve of gay people, or their behavior, but we don't do violence against them. But we still discount them as being legitimate human beings, because they are against god. So now they are second class citizens afforded less protection by the community. If thugs beat them up, all the thugs have to do is say: He "came on" to me! And the community looks away and lets it go. This happens less now, because society is learning that this is wrong, but thirty years ago, gay people couldn't even tell close friends where they stand on the sex issue, they had to stay underground. There is still a climate out there of bigotry, just like there is still a climate out there for racism. This allows people like Mathew Shepherd to be brutalized, nailed to a fence post in this case, to die on the fencepost for your sins. He isn't a god, so he actually dies and if your religion is real, brutal as it is, he goes to hell under god's so called plan, and gets tortured for eternity. So he loses more than Jesus did, because jesus is just god in people clothing. Get it?
. But really, I don't believe the story myself. I think the story of jesus dying on the cross, was invented about seventy years after he actually died. Your religion is bullshit, the mullahs are whipping up hate for the gays and tacitly endorsing anyone who kills them, by just rationalizing homosexuality as either anti xtian behavior or against god, whatever, and the mullahs are benefitting from the hatred. There is no heaven to go to, Gay people die and lose everything, and you go on pushing your brutal religion as if everything is hearts and roses. Gay people are dying for YOUR sins all the time.
. Think of gayness as an evolutionary back eddy in the stream of life. When we see water running uphill in a stream, we don't say: That water is evil, possessed by deamons and working against god. We learned not to do that to witches, why can't we learn to leave the gay people alone...(?) We say oh, it's a back eddy in the river.
. Gay people are just an evolutionary back eddy, that should be appreciated for it's beauty, and nothing else. Also, they dress nicer than most guys and know where all the coolest nightclubs are. You should hang out with them and learn a little more about life, than just from what you can get out of your bible.
Love: Giordano Bruno.
. OK no, I don't love you, but know I need to tolerate you.

Hey Hal:
Did you not read what I wrote about Jesus dying for your sins? I said: If jesus is actually an earthly manifestation of god, and if god is indestructable, like the bible says, then he wouldn't die on that cross. He just lost his earthly body, which is compared to dirty rags in the bible anyway.(Doesn't say much for human kind, being compared to dirty rags. That's the climate of abuse that mullahs used to molest childeren.)
. The whole death on the cross was staged as a theater, to push a guilt trip on us to keep us paying our ten percent. If he greives for us for saying this, then he will also greive for you xtians trying to push the gay people around.
. Your religion is very bloody, just look at Mel Gibson's passion of the Christ if you don't believe me. Your religion is so bloody you don't even know it when you or your so caled god are being brutal.
. Here's another way of looking at it: Islamists hate america and Isreal, they don't need to, but the mullahs know that this hatred unites their people, so they whip it up, to gain power from it. If an extremist actually kills an isreali or an american, the mullah just shrugs it off as god's will, and gives lip service to peace, saying: We shouldn't kill, but it happens.
So now the same thing is going on with gay people: The mullah says: God is against gay people, (Never mind that he created them that way.) we don't approve of gay people, or their behavior, but we don't do violence against them. But we still discount them as being legitimate human beings, because they are against god. So now they are second class citizens afforded less protection by the community. If thugs beat them up, all the thugs have to do is say: He "came on" to me! And the community looks away and lets it go. This happens less now, because society is learning that this is wrong, but thirty years ago, gay people couldn't even tell close friends where they stand on the sex issue, they had to stay underground. There is still a climate out there of bigotry, just like there is still a climate out there for racism. This allows people like Mathew Shepherd to be brutalized, nailed to a fence post in this case, to die on the fencepost for your sins. He isn't a god, so he actually dies and if your religion is real, brutal as it is, he goes to hell under god's so called plan, and gets tortured for eternity. So he loses more than Jesus did, because jesus is just god in people clothing. Get it?
. But really, I don't believe the story myself. I think the story of jesus dying on the cross, was invented about seventy years after he actually died. Your religion is bullshit, the mullahs are whipping up hate for the gays and tacitly endorsing anyone who kills them, by just rationalizing homosexuality as either anti xtian behavior or against god, whatever, and the mullahs are benefitting from the hatred. There is no heaven to go to, Gay people die and lose everything, and you go on pushing your brutal religion as if everything is hearts and roses. Gay people are dying for YOUR sins all the time.
. Think of gayness as an evolutionary back eddy in the stream of life. When we see water running uphill in a stream, we don't say: That water is evil, possessed by deamons and working against god. We learned not to do that to witches, why can't we learn to leave the gay people alone...(?) We say oh, it's a back eddy in the river.
. Gay people are just an evolutionary back eddy, that should be appreciated for it's beauty, and nothing else. Also, they dress nicer than most guys and know where all the coolest nightclubs are. You should hang out with them and learn a little more about life, than just from what you can get out of your bible.
Love: Giordano Bruno.
. OK no, I don't love you, but know I need to tolerate you.

Hey Giordano - What are you a novelist? I go to sleep trying to read all the crap you type up. Have you ever heard the term "Keep It Simple Stupid"???? You may have as much to learn as you type.

Hey Giordano:
Did you not see what I said? Maybe you should read over it again. And of course I read what you wrote. I just completley disagree with everything your saying! I believe what I believe and you can't say anything to change my mind or make me stop defending Christians.

I know that God loves us and let his own Son suffer and DIE on the cross for us! He suffered so much for your sins and now you're saying that it was nothing? And back to what I've said in previous posts, the people you think are "Christians" are definetly NOT from what you've been saying about them. Have you ever even went to a church? And I mean a real church like Northshore or Edgewood or even Westgate! Go to one of them and then tell me they are bloody haters.

On a final note I'd just like to say: I'd rather live my whole life believing their is a God and finding out there's not, then go my whole life thinking there's not a God and finding out there is.

Love,
Hal

P.S. Yes I did say love because God tells us to love our enemies. Even though I'm finding it hard right now I still pray for you and everyone like you.

Hello Hal, and you too Daler.
There was a lot of information in what I wrote, and I am putting together cause and effect. It's an: if this is true, then such and such would follow. It's called logic.
If there was a Jesus, and if he was an earthly manifestation of god, or god in people clothing, to make it simple for you, then he actually was a god, and couldn't die. So when he supposedly died on the cross, he didn't die, he must have staged it to put a guilt trip on people who would buy into it. He didn't die for our sins, he died for our tithe. Our ten percent. Just follow the money! Like Deep throat told Woodward and Bernstein. Follow the money!

. So my understanding from biblical research articles is that Jesus died and xtians put together the ressurection story about seventy years after he died. Don't take my word for it, ask a biblical scholar. Oh that's right, they have a monetary interest in keeping the story straight, don't they!

. Oh yeah, I know that religious and political debates run in circles forever, but I'm banging my head against the wall so persistantly, because:

1) You xtians are trying to lobby to change our laws to foist your twisted values on people who don't believe in your bloody religion.

2) You are scapegoating the gay community just as surely as hitler scapegoated the jews, and you know that was bloody brutal.

3) Your tacit approval of abortion clinic bombers has caused some bloody problems in the past.

4) I've read the bible, and every time I do, and every time I go to church, I hear oppression and twisted and tortured logic used to push brutal values on people.

Values like
(A)Isaiah: no women may rule over men, and no women may teach men in schools.
(B) Joshua: kill all the women and children in each of the tribes that you conquer. (Doesn 't leave much room for peaceful settlements or living and letting others live, doesn't give much creedence to love your enemies, does it? Why does god say one thing and then say and do another, in other words.
(C) Passover: Poison gassing all the childeren in the Pharoah's village. God did this one, he didn't tell the devil to do it, he just got busy and got his own hands bloody. Why didn't he just teach the jews and pharoah to negotiate a peaceful settlement? Killing Children? Are you crazy? Why would I follow or believe in a god that does shit like that? Are you nuts?
(D) Job: God tells the devil to do everything to Job except kill him. So the devil kills his kids, gives him herpes, kills his cattle, what else does he do? Burn his house down? Does he kill the wife? Now look at this from my point of view, God lets satan kill Job's kids. I have kids, where am I supposed to relate to this? What am I to think of this religion, when they are telling me that they have some kind of genocidal, end of the world mass death scenario for half the population of the world if they or I don't believe in that nonsense? If I don't believe in all that killing, then I'm gonna be punished by a perfect, kind, compassionate, merciful god? Give me a break! I'll take buddhism with all it's faults! Get yourself some kind of moral compass. Xtianity is not it! It is so brutal that you don't even know it when you see it. You don't understand it when I spell it out for you. Xtianity is neither moral nor is it ethical.
Thank you for asking though.

God was created in Man's image. Look at how brutal he was in the bible. He's just an extension of our Id. Our Egos. Look how xtians have brutalized others, and each other:
The Thirty years war, the inquisitions, the jewish pogroms of hitler, (he rationalized the genocide by saying that the jews sold out jesus.)
We white "xtians" brutalized the American indians because they were considered ungodly heathens that were a problem that needed to go away. So the Catholic mullahs gave them buffalo robes infected with small pox... Bibliography? Would it do any good? Read "Bury my heart at wounded knee", or Hyemeost Storm's: "Seven Arrows."

Oh yeah,
It says in the bible that disobedient children should be put to death, and that women who adulter, should be stoned to death. And then jesus says: He who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Is this a good cop / bad cop? Why would the bible be so brutal and then have jesus bail it out? I do not relate to this bible. It is so random that I can't give it any credibility.
. Giordano Bruno.

It was great ranting with you all.

I enjoyed the flogging, and if there is anyone out there whom I did not offend, I apologize.
Giordano Bruno

Giordano - Obviously you have created a "logic" all your own. That of which you are entirely entitled to. But somehow I don't think it quite aligns itself with what mankind (probably 90 % of them) has envisioned and deciphered things as over the last 2000 or so years. Maybe there isn't a God. Maybe there is. Myself... I would rather belive in all things good. Christians for the most part are good people. People that care about each other and all those around them.. Athiests, on the other hand, have yet to prove that to me. Athiests surely don't spread love around. Like I said. I'm not a Christian per say - but I choose to stay away from the dark side.

By the way - Going to church does not make one a Christian. A heart full of love does.

Giordano,
I'm sick of reading your long emails so I just skipped to the bottom where you wrote shorter emails. First of all when you give so called "quotes" from the Bible give the verse and chapter so I myself can see what you are looking at. Second, well actualy I could go on and on ranting and raging like you do and list so many ways you have it wrong but that's just boring and you'll probably ignore it anyways. God has a purpose for everyone, and although I know he wants you to be different (to say the least), I think I know what part of your purpose is: To help me relize how much I love God and that if anyone try's to challenge that and convince me otherwise, I'm strong enough to fight for what I believe in and not back down. So if anything, Giordino, you've helped me have a stronger relationship with God. So with this I say, Thank you.

Love,
Hal

Hal
That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Do you not know Job, Joshua, Sodom, Gamorah or Passover? Do I need to give you page numbers for those stories? If I do, you need to get out more often. It's kike my Moslem day care woman. I asked her about the koran, and she said: I haven't read it, but I know it's about a way of life! She spoke in reverent tones, as if that religion was somehow wonderful. But she hadn't even read the damn book!

Do you not know Hebrews, 14:3? That's where god says: Marriage is honorable among all.

Hal and the likes of you:
. If you can't stand to read my long notes, then this means you wouldn't be able to read a simple history text book, telling you the history of your religion. My notes are only a few paragraphs, and you're zoned out allready. Think of reading Will and Aerial Durant's book called: The Age of Reaon Begins. It's only a short seven hundred pages.
. You need to research a politician before you vote for him, and you need to research your religion before you buy into it. Many Germans failed to look into hitler's history before they threw themselves into fascism.
. There. Two paragraphs. what does this say about us? I think that the public kind of shorted themselves, and didn't do enough research, before they voted for George Bush.
. Giordano Bruno.

Giordano, the reason I don't read your long notes is because it's a bunch of bull that I frankley just don't want to read. It's not because I'm not capable of reading it all, I am. I don't make long notes because I know that you most likely feel the same way about what I'm saying so why bother? There is much more I could say right now about the note you left before, but I'm getting sick of this endless fighting that I know will never end because we are both strong willed. That said, this will be my last post. I know you'll most likley comment on this note and say something I don't agree with. Just because I won't respond don't think I agree with whatever your going to say. To all those Christians out there, stick with what you believe in and don't let others make you think otherwise.

Signing out for the last time,
Hal

AMEN, Hal!!! Hope you read this. Giordano sounds to me like a facist that hates life in general and will agree with anything anti-religion and gay. I feel sort of sorry for the poor devil. Did I say devil??? Well maybe devil's advocate. What ever Giordano is, he's a loser. God has a way of seeing to that in his own time. I've seen it many times. Good luck on judgement day Giordano.

Yes, hee hee. I rest my case.

But really, you never told me how I was supposed to relate to Job, Joshua, Passover, Soddom or Gamorah. Have you ever read them?
. GB

i havnt read all of the posts over this issue and im sure some good points have been made but no matter how much you talk about it, argue and fight about it people have allways hated and they allways will. you can either be a part of it or just stand back and watch the stupid of it all.

Hello Erv
I couldn't stand the suspense. I just had to jump into the fray. But it felt good. It was cathartic. It was like paintball, or smacking people around with a foam mallet. You're right of course, but I would be pretty bored, and it would be lame, just ranting to my wife.
. GB

. The funny thing is, when I told Hal and Daler that their god kills babies, and that he told Joshua to kill babies, they got mad at me, instead of god.
. What I told them, was just a sample of the many biblical stories written in the very bible that they read. Essentially I told them the truth, and they got mad at me. (The fascists did that in WWII.) I wonder if this means that Stalin was right. (?)
. I mean, he said that religion is the opium of the masses. Opium is an addictive substance, and I've had the experience where I've told an addict that they are addicted, and that they don't know that they are addicted, and when I did, they got very mad at me, and responded that this is a mean spirited thing for me to say.
. In other words, They got mad at me for telling them that they are addicted... I believe that stalin was correct. (No caps for stalin please.)

. The funny thing is, when I told Hal and Daler that their god kills babies, and that he told Joshua to kill babies, they got mad at me, instead of god.
. What I told them, was just a sample of the many biblical stories written in the very bible that they read. Essentially I told them the truth, and they got mad at me. (The fascists did that in WWII.) I wonder if this means that Stalin was right. (?)
. I mean, he said that religion is the opium of the masses. Opium is an addictive substance, and I've had the experience where I've told an addict that they are addicted, and that they don't know that they are addicted, and when I did, they got very mad at me, and responded that this is a mean spirited thing for me to say.
. In other words, They got mad at me for telling them that they are addicted... I believe that stalin was correct. (No caps for stalin please.)

I just can't help it I had to read the blog to see what's been said and Giordano, your just kicking a dead horse.

Hello Hal!
I knew you wouldn't be able to stand it. You couldn't stay away.

I don't think that sticking up for the underdog can be overdone. I've told you that xtians need to leave the gay people be, and I don't think that this will happen for a long, long time.
. I just don't think that it's possible for the xtians to follow the bible's lead, and live by the creed: They who are without sin throw the first stone. I'm just as certain of this, as I knew that you would write back again.
. I'd like to say that it's human nature, but I think that humans can learn to change their behavior.
. I'm hoping that you went to church last sunday and asked your mullah if I was lying when I said all of that stuff about god killing babies. Because as far as I know, all of the things I have said are easily corroborated in the bible or in the bibliography that I gave in some of my responses. Go ask your mullah.

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fu... fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are finding new cures for diseases, and they are using evolutionary facts to fight diseases. For instance, germs are evolving resistances to the drugs that we are using, and the researchers are recreating drugs to overcome those drug resistant germs. Xtians are trying to fight the fact of evolution, and this is going to hurt people. Stop it.
6) Gay people are a fact of life, they are people, not some godless heathens to be quashed by your watchmen on the walls. Don't fabricate a fight in order to gains some kind of power. Leave them alone.
7) Don't forget that your bible says: Let the first person toss the first stone, Marriage is honorable among all, live and let live.

. Giordano Bruno

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are finding new cures for diseases, and they are using evolutionary facts to fight diseases. For instance, germs are evolving resistances to the drugs that we are using, and the researchers are recreating drugs to overcome those drug resistant germs. Xtians are trying to fight the fact of evolution, and this is going to hurt people. Stop it.
6) Gay people are a fact of life, they are people, not some godless heathens to be quashed by your watchmen on the walls. Don't fabricate a fight in order to gains some kind of power. Leave them alone.
7) Don't forget that your bible says: Let the first person toss the first stone, Marriage is honorable among all, live and let live....

. Giordano Bruno

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are finding new cures for diseases, and they are using evolutionary facts to fight diseases. For instance, germs are evolving resistances to the drugs that we are using, and the researchers are recreating drugs to overcome those drug resistant germs. Xtians are trying to fight the fact of evolution, and this is going to hurt people. Stop it.
6) Gay people are a fact of life, they are people, not some godless heathens to be quashed by your watchmen on the walls. Don't fabricate a fight in order to gains some kind of power. Leave them alone.
7) Don't forget that your bible says: Let the first person toss the first stone, Marriage is honorable among all, live and let live....

. Giordano Bruno

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are finding new cures for diseases, and they are using evolutionary facts to fight diseases. For instance, germs are evolving resistances to the drugs that we are using, and the researchers are recreating drugs to overcome those drug resistant germs. Xtians are trying to fight the fact of evolution, and this is going to hurt people. Stop it.
6) Gay people are a fact of life, they are people, not some godless heathens to be quashed by your watchmen on the walls. Don't fabricate a fight in order to gains some kind of power. Leave them alone.
7) Don't forget that your bible says: Let the first person toss the first stone, Marriage is honorable among all, live and let live....

. Giordano Bruno

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are finding new cures for diseases, and they are using evolutionary facts to fight diseases. For instance, germs are evolving resistances to the drugs that we are using, and the researchers are recreating drugs to overcome those drug resistant germs. Xtians are trying to fight the fact of evolution, and this is going to hurt people. Stop it.
6) Gay people are a fact of life, they are people, not some godless heathens to be quashed by your watchmen on the walls. Don't fabricate a fight in order to gains some kind of power. Leave them alone.
7) Don't forget that your bible says: Let the first person toss the first stone, Marriage is honorable among all, live and let live....

. Giordano Bruno

1) We used to burn witches and have since learned that this is the wrong thing to do.
2) We burned Copernicus at the stake, and Giordano Bruno also, because they told the world that the earth revolves around the sun. Obviously the xtinas were wrong on that one.
3) We used to believe that the earth is flat, because the bible said it's so. We've since learned that this isnt' true.
4) We brutalized the american indians, because they were godless heathens, we thought, and it's only now that we are beginning, and I do mean only beginning, to realize we really fouled up on that one.
5) We are benefitting from the doctors and scientists who are find